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Christian fundamentalism, support for Israel

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 01:29
One thing that Israelis should know about Christian Fundamentalist support.  
Some fundamentalists support Israel in everything, just because they feel an affinity to Judaism.  
But other fundamentalists support Israel because they want to hurry up Armageddon.  Of course, in their opinion, the Jews who don't recognize Jesus at that time, will all be damned.  They are happy to get Jews to hasten Armageddon, but at the same time they recognize that all these Jews that are hastening Armageddon, will, unless they recognize the True Messiah, will be damned.  They don't feel duplicitous about that, because after all, they're not dealing with believers.  They are not particularly interested in Israel getting along with its neighbors, in fact if Israel does _not_ get along with its neighbors is probably better in their opinion, because again, they want to bring on Armageddon, and haleileua! they think that they will miss it all, because of the rapture.

Putting the American Embassy in Jerusalem is a symbolic gesture.  But amongst all his other failures, this is one thing that President Trump can do to say he has achieved something.  And in doing so, he can declare victory, after all he is not going to live with the consequences.  There is some vague chance that something good will come out of it, beside the United States getting further into bed with Israel, but to believe that Trump did it, _so_that_ something positive will come about, is a flight of imagination.  Trump has no plan, except to be the big dog.  And you know what they say about big dogs, the bigger the dog, the bigger the poo.  But, some people will just be amazed and astonished at just how big the dump is, in their amazement, they will forget that after all, it is a turd, albeit a colossal one at that.  They will say, "imagine if that was a diamond!" but it isn't.
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Vanuatu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 02:03
And now you read minds?
Fundamentalists behind it all? 

You have to make Trump culpable so..just had to get out there with a condemnation so you can blame Trump for the next psycho to bomb a bus full of Israelis?


 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 02:34
I have just talked to some thoughtful Jews and how they realize that the fundamentalist Christian support for Israel in some cases has a very anti-Jewish agenda.  Not all, most fundamentalist Christians are sincere about interest and support for Israel.  But some only look at it as a precursor to the end times, a-la Revelations.  Diasporic Jews in the US, tend to know that, I don't know how much Israelis are aware of that.

Either Trump is making the situation better, or worse, or (most unlikely) no change.  Not all change is good, so yes, in that sense Trump contributes to the situation.  Maybe in the long term it will end up an improvement, even so, how much trouble will we have to go through to get there.  But, we all contribute (positively or negatively) to 'the situation,' whatever that situation might be.  That includes writing posts on forums that may or may not get read.

But President Trump has a unique ability to affect the situation in the Middle East, he has passed over the advice of European and Arab leaders.  So, yes, he does have an influence on whether there is war in the Middle East.

You might say that WWII resolved various issues that were not resolved in WWI.  But, I don't think very many people would think that how they were resolved was the best way to do so, or even a good way to do so.  Maybe Trump acknowledging Jerusalem as the capital of Israel will contribute to the resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian problem, but one hopes that that "contribution will be more positive than negative, both in the short term, and the long term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 16:21
I think that a grave error with lasting ramifications has been made with the recognition of Jerusalem being the capital of Israel.It flies in the face of decades of US diplomacy and has caused an upsurge of unrest in the middle east. Why can't people just keep their noses out of what is none of their business?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 22:19
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I think that a grave error with lasting ramifications has been made with the recognition of Jerusalem being the capital of Israel.It flies in the face of decades of US diplomacy and has caused an upsurge of unrest in the middle east. Why can't people just keep their noses out of what is none of their business?

Every six months for a decade a US president has kept their nose out and neglected a promise to a so called ally. You recall your various rants about the importance of allies? Are the Zionist analogous to the Fundamentalists who want the Jews to hurry up and die in Armageddon? Oh wait that wasn't you ;)

So fly, fly, fly in the face of the utterly ineffectual US foreign policy in the Middle East.
I'm expecting it improves the lives of Palestinians in terms of sanitation and connection to the outside world. US embassy in Jerusalem will means more support, food & better medical for Palestinians.

“Jerusalem Embassy Act,” which formally recognized the city as the country’s capital and called for the U.S. Embassy in Israel to be moved there from Tel Aviv by 1999. Support for the bill was overwhelming. It passed the Senate by a 93 to 5 vote, with four Republicans and one Democrat voting no. It passed the House 374 to 37, with 153 Democrats joining most of the new Republican majority that had swept into power in 1994.

The bill became law after Clinton declined to sign it for a 10-day period while Congress was in session. He, George W. Bush and Barack Obama all postponed the embassy move every six months for each of the 22 years since the law was enacted.

Passing the law allowed Congress to demonstrate commitment to the issue while not forcing the president to act on it. It also meant that, for those interested in doing so, the issue was kept alive as a political issue.



Edited by Vanuatu - 07 Dec 2017 at 22:28
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 22:17
Yes, it was a pandering gimme from Bob Dole, when he ran for President he had a poor record as far as the Israeli lobby was concerned and this was a way to improve his standing, of course the catch was that it was never really supposed to be enacted.  The change wouldn't happen unless the President said so, and there was an understanding that the President wouldn't say so, an understanding because it would complicate Israeli-Palestinian and U.S. relations.  Of course, Trump and the fundamentalists don't share that understanding.  But for someone who pretends to be such a wheeler-dealer, it is a pretty colossal (an pandering) give away.  Of course, he wants to rack-up a "win," and he promised to do so.  Too bad he didn't promise to put his head in a blender, (only other people's heads, figuratively speaking).  Just because he promised something a year and a half ago doesn't mean it is a good idea, it just means he's reacting instead of pro-acting (another word for that is leading, instead of pandering).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 00:08
The US can't give Israel what it already has, a capital in Jerusalem. Before Rabin was shot the peace process was moving forward. Bob Dole didn't make it happen, it's just that no one is playing pretend anymore. 

"Support for the bill was overwhelming. It passed the Senate by a 93 to 5 vote, with four Republicans and one Democrat voting no. It passed the House 374 to 37, with 153 Democrats joining most of the new Republican majority that had swept into power in 1994."
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 21:54
No, they're playing make believe, welcome to "the end times," next step is to secure the temple mount, and rebuild the temple, fundamentalist cattle breeders are working on the "red heifer project" to secure a red heifer to sacrifice for sanctifying the temple.  It is all steps toward bringing Armageddon, and bringing back Jesus.  These fundamentalists are living for the rapture and for the great war, which will sweep away the evil in the world.  They're in their own way as crazy as the radical Islamists.  But their apocalypticism would not be such a concern if we didn't have the ability to destroy ourselves these days.  An ability that Trump wants to spread to others, and use ourselves.

When Trump was elected I wondered if the lone wolf gun would calm down, now having a "kindred soul" in the White House, I think that the opposite has happen, there have been more drastic shootings with Trump rather than less.  Donald Trump seems to bring out the worst in people, consciously, whether it is Putin or Kim Jong Un, or the religious right, or white supremacists.  It is a populism that fragments people and sets them off against each other.  Not that the democrats are immune to this, Hillary has always been a divisive figure, and the democrats just had to anoint her as once and -future- queen.

I am so glad that you support the Senate and the House, Vanuatu, I hope you continue that support to calm members of the Congressional establishment, like McConnell and Ryan.  Or I suppose you can declare your support for Donald Trump and Roy Moore.  You know, the guy that likes little girls, but he is a Trumpian, and of course we "need" him in the Senate, because democrats have fangs and molest children (oh, wait, that is Moore).  Maybe Moore is done with that stage in his life, now he's been kicked out of a state judgeship twice.  But Trump did not campaign for him in Alabama, he went to neighboring Pensacola which broadcasts into Alabama and campaigned for him there.  Very clever, he did not technically lie, he just shat over the spirit of his promise not to campaign for such a degenerate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2017 at 17:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

No, they're playing make believe, welcome to "the end times," next step is to secure the temple mount, and rebuild the temple, fundamentalist cattle breeders are working on the "red heifer project" to secure a red heifer to sacrifice for sanctifying the temple.  It is all steps toward bringing Armageddon, and bringing back Jesus.  These fundamentalists are living for the rapture and for the great war, which will sweep away the evil in the world.  They're in their own way as crazy as the radical Islamists.  But their apocalypticism would not be such a concern if we didn't have the ability to destroy ourselves these days.  An ability that Trump wants to spread to others, and use ourselves.
So rednecks have partly brought about the end times by voting for Trump and a red heifer is proof of conspiracy to trigger apocalyptic bloodletting. As per thoughtful Jews? Were they secular thoughtful, or orthodox thoughtful?
Before Trump the annihilation of the planet- out of the question- but now Trump is spreading that ability. You'll understand if I don't accept that statement on your say so despite my reverence for thoughtful Jews.

Quote When Trump was elected I wondered if the lone wolf gun would calm down, now having a "kindred soul" in the White House, I think that the opposite has happen, there have been more drastic shootings with Trump rather than less.
Don't you have any regard for substantiating theses statements with at least a scholarly link? Who did the math on this one? Rachael Maddow?

Quote Donald Trump seems to bring out the worst in people, consciously, whether it is Putin or Kim Jong Un, or the religious right, or white supremacists.  It is a populism that fragments people and sets them off against each other.  Not that the democrats are immune to this, Hillary has always been a divisive figure, and the democrats just had to anoint her as once and -future- queen.
He brings out the worst in some people; academics, liberals and hollywood for the most part although there are crossovers to be sure.

Quote I am so glad that you support the Senate and the House, Vanuatu, I hope you continue that support to calm members of the Congressional establishment, like McConnell and Ryan.
Nothing I wrote suggests any support of the current situation. Clearly quoting a vote from 1995 that refutes your claim that recognizing Jerusalem as the capital  Israel was some kind of good ol' Bob Dole magic, is another subject.

Quote   Or I suppose you can declare your support for Donald Trump and Roy Moore.  You know, the guy that likes little girls, but he is a Trumpian, and of course we "need" him in the Senate, because democrats have fangs and molest children (oh, wait, that is Moore).  Maybe Moore is done with that stage in his life, now he's been kicked out of a state judgeship twice.  But Trump did not campaign for him in Alabama, he went to neighboring Pensacola which broadcasts into Alabama and campaigned for him there.  Very clever, he did not technically lie, he just shat over the spirit of his promise not to campaign for such a degenerate.
I suppose you declare the witch hunt ON! 
When was Moore charged or convicted? One of his accusers has admitted to writing in her yearbook related to an entry she attributes to Moore, after she came out with her story. Which makes her testimony in Alabama subject to disregard by jurors. As she admits to lying about any of the evidence then it puts all of her statements in question. Which by the way was after the Washington Post contacted her to ask about her relationship with him. Very easy to mine for information. 

Al Fraken's  career is over but it took his accusers years to realize how traumatized they were. 
The convenience of these accusations are glaring. 

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2017 at 22:30
Certain fundamentalists are hot on the Second Coming, and do there all to lead up to it.  That because they are not too fond of the First Coming, turn-the-other-cheek Jesus, he is not Rambo macho enough for them.  I don't believe that right now is the end times, I don't believe in an end.  But some evangelicals seem to want to bring the end-times on, some actively want an armageddon, while others are resigned to it and don't see how it can be avoided, or whether it should be avoided at all.
I am a republican, my mother and her brother's family are republicans, I have a friend who is an evangelical (not all, probably not most, are end times crazy), and a republican, we all detest Trump, who up until seven years ago, was a democrat (maybe that's why he knows them so well), I consider Trump to be a carpet bagger, with no principles other than to say the right things to be elected.  Oh, actually he does follow through on those things no matter how stupid they are.  Personally, I think he is a good candidate for the anti-Christ, if I believed in that stuff.  Someone who promises heaven, and leads everyone to hell.
to be continued....
As far as Israel and prophecy is concerned, first the messiah is supposed to come, then he will lead the Jewish people back to Israel.  I mean, Maimonides describes tombs opening up, and bodies rolling to Israel.  I don't know if mainstream medieval Judaism has that image, but the order is clear first Messiah, then the implementation of Israel.  So therefore, as far as prophecy is concerned, for at least some Jews, Israel is a pretender, a secular state pretending to be the Jewish state.  Of course, most of the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel, are so tickled to be in the holy land, and praying at the wailing wall, and subsidized, that they are not particularly concerned about it.  For them, every other state is not legitimate either, so they might as well be in Israel waiting for the Messiah there.  Of course, there are some Orthodox Jews in America, who also consider Israel a pretender, and don't particularly want to deal with it.  btw, the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel, are a problem because they don't serve in the military, have large families, and instead of working or military service, pray and study all the time.  Praying is their "service," it is not clear if such a pattern is sustainable.
There is a Jewish heresy called tikkun olam- a repair of the world.  Which David Horowitz calls "the new Lurianic doctrine of redemption."  "Redemption takes place through the Holiness of the Chosen, whose observances and prayers are performed with a mystical intensity that deprives evil of it power."
So what's my point? with this Jewish heresy one no longer waits for the coming of the Messiah, one tries to transform the world, so that the Messiah will come.  Now I don't think that that was the original purpose of Israel, but I do think that it is the background of Israeli culture and not necessarily that far in the background.  And I do think that some Christian fundamentalists have latched onto it, they don't want to wait for Jesus to come, they want to make it happen, by doing things like using genetic engineering, to make a red heifer.


Edited by franciscosan - 11 Dec 2017 at 01:45
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