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BREXIT?

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franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 22:51
If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?
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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 23:11
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?

Certainly seems to be the case.

Now some are calling for a second referendum. If that were to be held it's likely that "The Remainers" would win. The whole thing was never thought out very well.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 03:01
I don't know it might even be worth it in the long run to take a short term loss, instead of being saddled to the rest of Europe, of course Britain didn't adopt the Euro, so I can't see how that can pull them down.

I am not sure why they want a divorce, then again, I am not sure why they wanted to be together in the first place.

I knew a guy who when he got divorces (3?), he just left, let her keep the house and everything.  I am sure that is what Europe has in mind.
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caldrail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 12:43
Britain chose by a small majority to leave because of concerns over worker immigration and competition for employment, national determination and identity, and a lack of commonality with European spirit. There were other minor reasons too. Personally I voted to leave because I never liked the European Union. The Common Market was a good idea but a new European power? However carefully they build it sooner or later it will end in tears. Already some member states are struggling financially and across Europe right wing groups are rising in significance.
 
Europe does not want Britain to leave. We're one of the major contributors to their budget and maintain an important financial sector. That's why they kept on fudging and stretching out the negotiation, though in fariness, Mrs May is not the worlds greatest diplomat either.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 00:26
Caldrail

So is another referendum the way to go?

What are the financial considerations in leaving the EU?

It seems to me that this issue is as important to the UK as a peoples right to self determination, could it be that the people who initially voted for BREXIT were correct?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 02:04
I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 05:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?

Being very pro-Irish unification, I agree with you. People have a right to self determination.

If the UK does BREXIT or if it doesn't, the soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic should remain soft or risk upsetting the Good Friday Agreement.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2019 at 11:29
The only reason for holding a second referendum regardless of what some politicians are spouting is merely to allow a referendum decision to be reversed and Brexit cancelled in favour of remaining.
One would have to say India is better off now. Whether it would have improved under colonial rule is another matter, but India is a regional superpower now and growing economically despite the poverty that plagues the country.
 
The soft border is already protected under rules formulated for dealing with a No Deal exit. It states that no customs checks will take place on border crossings. The only fly in the ointment over this was the Irish Backstop but May has managed to get what politicians were asking for and the EU agreed a legal termination clause.
 
Self determination is all very well - we still have calls for that in the UK, with Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and Cornish groups working for independence (Yep - Cornwall has its own movement. Remember that historically Cornwall was a refuge of 'Welsh' tribes during the Dark Ages, never fully occupied by the Romans, and the relative isolation of the peninsula has always encouraged independent culture.
 
Woodrow Wilson however was not talking about all sub-societies getting their own slice of the action. He was attempting to find a solution to the European issue of antagonistic empires, and since Austro-Hungary had in fact divorced into the Dual Monarchy already (the same guy was the Austrian Emperor and the Hungarian King) plus independence movements in the Balkans had been emphasising local culture, and the case of the Serbs, a series of wars leading to WW1, it made sense to break-up the Austro-Hungarian Empire with defeat becoming obvious to all concerned. Remember that Great Bulgaria, formed by Russia as a a satellite state, was broken up under pressure from the other European powers because it was too strong a foothold.
 
As events in Catalonia showed, asking for independence is not straightforward. In the same way that Spain wants Gibraltar, Argentina wants the Falklands, Morocco wants Cueta etc, current desires are measured against national integrity and historical precedent. Otherwise, as former member of SPQR that seceded in the 5th century, Britain might well be called upon to bow and allow the Vatican to take control. Or does Scandanavia have a better claim to northern England by virtue of conquest and subsequent cultural influence? Texas returned to Mexico. California and Florida returned to the Spanish. Canada and Louisiana returned to the French. Alaska was sold by the Russians, so Putin might not be able to secure agreement there. Where does all this chaos stop?
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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