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BREXIT?

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    Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 00:14
The British parliaments intention  to exit the European Union was predicated, in part, to protect British borders. I'm of the understanding that BREXIT will have serious implications for the British economy, which has already suffered from the BREXIT talks.

The British people have voted by a narrow margin for BREXIT, and it was upon this vote that BREXIT actually came into being.

For Northern Ireland, the issues are not clear as they relate to a hoped for unification of the 32 counties. The Republic of Ireland, a member of the EU, classifies all Irish people as Irish, notwithstanding their political or religious  leanings, and at a minimum wants an open border between the Republic and the counties of Northern Ireland.

Scotland and Wales seem likely to continue opposition to BREXIT, and this could possibly force a constitutional crisis-remember that Scotland voted to remain, virtually, a part of the United Kingdom, but only by a narrow margin.

The separation of the United Kingdom is a potential outcome if the present issues are not resolved.

Prime Minister May faces increasing calls for a new BREXIT referendum, and for her resignation.

Could this be the end for the UK as we know it?

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 11:28
Brexit is a difficult situation. The public voted to leave, narrow margin or not, based on perceptions of the EU, the apparent lack of control over own borders and policies, and the frustration of competition for jobs with EU migrants.
 
A second referendum is being pursued by those who either feel the initial decision was wrong or that the situation has changed to warrant another. I disagree. The situation was predictable and seriously, did no-one realise the implications the first time around? The issue however is that a second vote is not democratic. it's like demanding to replay our world cup match against Croatia because we lost and want a different result.
 
As for May, despite her persistence and determination, she remains a poor public speaker and not an especially rousing leader. She has of course survived a vote of no-confidence and that makes her immune to leadership contest for twelve months.
 
As for Corbyn, he wants one thing and that's to grab power so he can pursue his agenda of nationalisation. Truth be told, his ambition is such that he doesn't care that much about Brexit and quite clearly would happily wreck any deal if it got him closer to No10.
 
The dreaded Backstop? I can't see what the issue is. The idea is to preserve the open border in Ireland and avoid any contention leading to a revival of hostilities over there. The problem for the EU is that Ireland would be the only such land border in their bureaucratic empire and they don't like it. I mean, really? Is it that threatening? Also the EU have agreed a deal with May and won't tolerate another, so talk about a deal like Canada or Norway is rather speculative. Opposition politicians talk about doing a deal with the EU once May's plan is defeated in the Commons but the EU aren't likely to play ball. They don't want endless negotiation toward a deal they won't agree with and I prophesied that at the beginning.
 
So we're left with three difficult choices. Firstly the plan offered by May. Not perfect, not even palatable to some, but at least a dignified exit and a framework for future negotiation toward something better. Secondly, we crash over the edge, no deal, and suffer the consequences of a difficult decade or two. Thirdly, we don't leave, which is worryingly un-democratic and a political loss of face even if the EU courts have decided we can still have all our negotiated deals intact.
 
The UK is rather more secure than it seems to be to you. The Scots, ever the most vocal in calls for independence, have already voted to remain in the UK, and even though SNP MP's are not going to go away, they don't have the majority to threaten the Union. Of course the Auld Alliance will never go away either, thus Scotland is rather less willing as a region to separate from Europe (Scotland and France historically have enjoyed a closer relationship than England). The issue with Ireland is of course whether an open border is retained. Wales is less contentious and probably remains so for the foreseeable future. Calls for the independence of Cornwall are really not taken that seriously.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2018 at 00:28
So, it seems that BREXIT will continue as the British policy. I don't know enough about the financial implications, but, as I understand it, there will be difficult times ahead for the UK.

Rather than continue the debate on the Irish border situation, I'd like for the UK government, in the near future, making a decision to unite the six counties with the Republic of Ireland. That, of course, would depend on the outcome of a referendum of the Northern Irish people, and could possibly by lost.

Since the Good Friday Agreement, it seems to me that the two opposing sides have lived side by side, more or less peacefully, which would bode well for a unification.

Northern Ireland (Ulster), if reunited with the Republic could find itself in a far better economic position that at present.

I know what you mean about the border control and employment issues,and they are very real. From my reading, membership of the EU has made it much easier for Eastern European organised crime to flourish in the UK, as if it needs any more crime!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 03:19
Caldrail, ?
What's this? Are UK citizens getting the same "Invented Brand" news as the US enjoys? 
Do they dislike May bc she held hands with Trump?Tongue
76% of MP's plump for no deal? Since May is a bad PM and er.. doing a bad job.. anyway. As for an actual reason, well umm there is the Ireland backstop, yes EU members would positively balk.

“Some 72% of voters currently intending to support the Conservatives think the warnings are ‘exaggerated or invented’ – a figure that rises to 76% among Tory members.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 03:42
Quote http://https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan
“Some 72% of voters currently intending to support the Conservatives think the warnings are ‘exaggerated or invented’ – a figure that rises to 76% among Tory members.

But that's not the whole story, is it?

Many elected members, on both sides of politics believe that BREXIT with no deal will be worse for the UK than being a member is at present.

The so-called back stop, the hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland can still be negotiated if the UK remains with the EU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 04:16
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote http://https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan
“Some 72% of voters currently intending to support the Conservatives think the warnings are ‘exaggerated or invented’ – a figure that rises to 76% among Tory members.

But that's not the whole story, is it?

Many elected members, on both sides of politics believe that BREXIT with no deal will be worse for the UK than being a member is at present.

The so-called back stop, the hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland can still be negotiated if the UK remains with the EU.
Hold the phone. In the article from several hours ago, the majority of MP's prefer No Deal to May's deal.
If the UK remains with the EU then Brexit is a non issue. I don't understand the politics behind EU members not enforcing maritime searches thereby flooding Ireland with contraband from eastern Europe. Is that an inflated, gloomy threat from the EU?
Would there still be a need for a hard border if EU continued their current standard of enforcement?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 00:52
Quote Would there still be a need for a hard border if EU continued their current standard of enforcement?

There are two very different forces at play here.

Members of the EU have an open borders policy (which has seen the strengthening of Eastern European organised crime, e.g. people trafficking and drugs), the Irish Republic currently has a soft border with Northern Ireland. I'm not sure what agreement the EU has in place for borders between member states and non-member states.

On the other hand is the movement for unification of the Irish 32 counties-maintenance of a soft border would make unification just a little smoother.

As for EU enforcement of border control, I think that's one of the aspects that has led to BREXIT, as well as the centralisation of control in Brussels.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 05:15
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Would there still be a need for a hard border if EU continued their current standard of enforcement?

There are two very different forces at play here.

Members of the EU have an open borders policy (which has seen the strengthening of Eastern European organised crime, e.g. people trafficking and drugs), the Irish Republic currently has a soft border with Northern Ireland. I'm not sure what agreement the EU has in place for borders between member states and non-member states.
The member states typically have agreements,non member border states like Norway or Sweden agree to some but not all EU regulations
 Big problem is smuggling right? 
British organised crime is moving loot from Spain. The question of whether EU members will stop  smugglers depending on Brexit, sounds invented
Which EU members DO NOT want to collect customs duties?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As for EU enforcement of border control, I think that's one of the aspects that has led to BREXIT, as well as the centralisation of control in Brussels.  
Yes but how does the EU have any hold on UK? If May took backstop out of the deal how likely is Ireland to build hard border stops? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 06:06
Quote Yes but how does the EU have any hold on UK? If May took backstop out of the deal how likely is Ireland to build hard border stops?

As long as the UK is a member of the EU, it has to conform to certain protocols and agreements.

As for the hard border question, I don't think that the Irish Republic would want a hard border. The Republic regards all Irish people as Irish, and still has unification on it's agenda. A hard border would mitigate against that. Whether the UK would want it, I don't know.

AFAIK, the current border is an open border, with people able to flow both ways as they wish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 21:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Yes but how does the EU have any hold on UK? If May took backstop out of the deal how likely is Ireland to build hard border stops?

As long as the UK is a member of the EU, it has to conform to certain protocols and agreements.

As for the hard border question, I don't think that the Irish Republic would want a hard border. The Republic regards all Irish people as Irish, and still has unification on it's agenda. A hard border would mitigate against that. Whether the UK would want it, I don't know.

AFAIK, the current border is an open border, with people able to flow both ways as they wish.
That's exactly what I seem to be reading and what everyday people are saying.

So WHY is this backstop essentially the "meat" in the deal? 
The "meat" used by Chukka Umunna?
(LOL congrats on the UK Obama :)

The main groups opposed to a hard Brexit are joining forces under the leadership of Chuka Umunna to push for the public’s voice to be heard on Theresa May’s final deal to leave the EU.The Labour MP, who has shifted his own position on the issue, said he had previously explained why he voted for article 50 in parliament, but that it had now become clear that the UK would not get the benefits of Brexit leave campaigners promised in 2016.




Edited by Vanuatu - 08 Jan 2019 at 21:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 23:46
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Yes but how does the EU have any hold on UK? If May took backstop out of the deal how likely is Ireland to build hard border stops?

As long as the UK is a member of the EU, it has to conform to certain protocols and agreements.

As for the hard border question, I don't think that the Irish Republic would want a hard border. The Republic regards all Irish people as Irish, and still has unification on it's agenda. A hard border would mitigate against that. Whether the UK would want it, I don't know.

AFAIK, the current border is an open border, with people able to flow both ways as they wish.
That's exactly what I seem to be reading and what everyday people are saying.

So WHY is this backstop essentially the "meat" in the deal? 
The "meat" used by Chukka Umunna?
(LOL congrats on the UK Obama :)

The main groups opposed to a hard Brexit are joining forces under the leadership of Chuka Umunna to push for the public’s voice to be heard on Theresa May’s final deal to leave the EU.The Labour MP, who has shifted his own position on the issue, said he had previously explained why he voted for article 50 in parliament, but that it had now become clear that the UK would not get the benefits of Brexit leave campaigners promised in 2016.


Personally, I think it's just a watery excuse. If the UK exits the EU the supposition is that the Republic of Ireland will impose a hard border between itself and Northern Ireland. I don't think that's the case.

I know that there's been a lot of water under the bridge over BREXIT, but I think that Theresa May's got herself into a position where, to extricate herself (to a certain degree anyway) the only way forward is for a second referendum.



To answer your question more clearly-see https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-19/explainer-brexit-and-the-irish-border-issue/10393818


Edited by toyomotor - 09 Jan 2019 at 00:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 19:21
The Republic considering all Irish people Irish.
What is the difference between that and the Russian position on Russians in Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, etc, etc?  All those places know the Russians well, and don't want to be in their co-prosperity sphere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 01:12
The main reason, I think would be the rationale behind such thoughts.

The Irish have never surrendered and have always regarded the island as one country, regardless of the fact that six counties come under British rule.

Russia's attitude is one based on power and control, probably with a view to snapping up those countries, again, which were part of the Soviet Union, or even before that, the Russian Federation. That the world sat by and watched the annexation of the Crimea is an international disgrace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 00:00
One point about BREXIT that I can't quire follow is that the UK wants out, but with conditions.

I don't see the EU wearing that. You can't have a football team play half a season, then quite but want all of their entitlements for a full season.

If BREXIT eventuates, and it's far from certain that it will, I suggest it will be a no deal separation.

In any event, I think that Theresa May is toast!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 04:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

One point about BREXIT that I can't quite follow is that the UK wants out, but with conditions.

I don't see the EU wearing that. You can't have a football team play half a season, then quit but want all of their entitlements for a full season.

If BREXIT eventuates, and it's far from certain that it will, I suggest it will be a no deal separation.

In any event, I think that Theresa May is toast!
Agree, agree. Too bad I kind of liked her.


Edited by toyomotor - 12 Jan 2019 at 23:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 08:05
The day of reckoning for Theresa May draws nearer. A parliamentary vote against her BREXIT plan will result in a vote of No Confidence which could see the current government OUT!

Talk is growing stronger that a successful BREXIT will result in Northern Ireland and Scotland leaving the United Kingdom altogether, and it's no idle threat.

The whole BREXIT issue arose because the British were far from happy with loss of control over their borders, and rules issued by Brussels, HQ of the EU in relation to Customs and other matters were seen to be grossly unfair. (That should have all been carefully considered before joining the EU.)

Which ever way the vote goes, Britain is in for a tumultuous time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2019 at 14:37
Do you remember May ever being FOR Brexit ? Seems to me that she was on the stay in EU camp. 
Read the press and you might believe that May was as good as gone or was the backstop there for the purpose of illustrating how impossible Brexit will be? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2019 at 17:03
I am not sure it does any good to select a new captain on a sinking ship.  It is not in the EU's best interest to make Britain's leaving painless.

I have heard that David Cameron, thinking that the referendum was a foregone conclusion, neglected in setting it up, failed in using a voting strategy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2019 at 12:17
Quote Caldrail, ?
What's this? Are UK citizens getting the same "Invented Brand" news as the US enjoys? 
Do they dislike May bc she held hands with Trump?Tongue
76% of MP's plump for no deal? Since May is a bad PM and er.. doing a bad job.. anyway. As for an actual reason, well umm there is the Ireland backstop, yes EU members would positively balk.
Prime Minister May has made certain strategic decisions about Brexit, not least of which is that she is holding March 29th as the cliff edge. Partly she has good reason. If we dither and extend Article 50, then we potentially never close the deal and Brexit stalls. On the other hand, some MP's are annoyed that she is to all intents and purposes using the deadline as a a form of blackmail. Agree or we go over the cliff in March.  She will not rule out a No-Deal Brexit for that reason - and that incenses a number of politicians.
 
Secondly, May is not the most inspiring leader Britain has ever had. Her speeches have improved just late but often she delivers her speeches in halting and indecisive manner. When she's prepared, she does better. Speaking ad hoc doesn't agree with her. Her role in brexit is peculiar, almost as if she's the dutiful mother of a tearaway son. However, at least she's trying to close the deal, rather than use the deal to further career ambitions like Corbyn has repeatedly done.
 
The EU are in fact greatly concerned at the British chaos over this anf although EU politicians have spoken about their disfavour of Brexit, most simply see it as what the British have opted for whether its's good for them or not. Democracy. You have to love it.
 
Quote So WHY is this backstop essentially the "meat" in the deal? 
Because in order to maintain open borders in ireland - no-one wants to install border checks there - the deal maintains customs union membership and EU rules and no automatic end is defined. Personally, I see it as exactly what it was intended for - a afety mechanism from which a future deal could be negotiated, but many MP's don't like the idea of being tied at the waist to the EU in this way.


Edited by caldrail - 19 Jan 2019 at 12:18
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2019 at 06:56
Caldrail wrote
Quote  MP's don't like the idea of being tied at the waist to the EU in this way.

And this is the very point that started the whole BREXIT thing in the first place. 

The UK was all in favour of a single EU market but the conditions of being a member of the EU started to rankle many British people. They saw loss of control of their borders, customs and immigration included, and decided to go back to the "old way".

Financially, it's being said that the UK will suffer, I don't know so much. I'd expect a certain degree of confusion and market fluctuation, initially, that will pass.

Neither Northern Ireland or the Republic want the institution of "hard borders" but this is what the EU are insisting upon. If the UK decides to go along with the setting up of hard borders, it could eventuate in the loss of Northern Ireland to the Republic. And if you think that the Republic won't do all in it's power to encourage that, you've gotta be joking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 11:34
[quote]And this is the very point that started the whole BREXIT thing in the first place. [quote]
You would think so wouldn't you, but Britain has been described as a 'leaver' state ruled by a 'Remainer' minority.
 
The EU don't want a hard border any more than Britain, but they are insisting that the periphery of their union is protected from uncontrolled trade across external EU borders. The issue is not whether this border is hardened, but the political implications in terms of the Good Friday Agreement.
 
By illustration, recall Hadrian's Wall on the Scots/English border, where there is a natural escarpment. In that day, tribes were intermarried across that border and the wall was built to control travel across it (not to keep the Scots out as is usually described). As a security border it functioned adequately but there were still occaisions of violence, and please note the Wall, whilst protecting Roman Britain, was defended on the south side by a road and ditch/rampart - the north of England was a wild and woolly place for the Romans.
 
So a hard border would obstruct free trade but not intrinsically prevent it. it would upset the Irish on both sides who don't want a customs frontier on their island, and provide a cause for the less restrained members of irish society to reinvigorate terrorism.
 
The loss of Northern Ireland? We're a nation that went to war with Argentina over a dispute on a protectorate in the south Atlantic. We're a nation that refused to give Gibraltar back to the Spanish. Okay, we ceded Hong Kong. But Ireland is a different matter. Because Ireland was never part of the Roman Empire it has always been instinctively at odds with English culture and understandably isn't comfortable with what many Irish consider foreign domination. But giving up Northern Ireland? If that was the solution it would already be on the table, though one is forced to point out that there is a sizeable number of pro-British nationals in Northern Ireland.


Edited by caldrail - 16 Feb 2019 at 11:35
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 00:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

If the UK decides to go along with the setting up of hard borders, it could eventuate in the loss of Northern Ireland to the Republic. And if you think that the Republic won't do all in it's power to encourage that, you've gotta be joking.
 
And it's suddenly a cultural trigger, effective new age advertising. Anyone can put some English on the their cause. 




Archaeologists must avoid prehistoric Brexit parallels – they encourage twisted readings of the past

February 13, 2019 by Kenneth Brophy, The Conversation

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-02-archaeologists-prehistoric-brexit-parallels.html#jCp

...public understanding of prehistory is being shaped by the "Brexit hypothesis". This is the proposition that any archaeological discovery in Europe can – and probably will – be exploited to argue in support of, or against, Brexit, if not by archaeologists, then certainly by the general public.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-02-archaeologists-prehistoric-brexit-parallels.html#jCp


Edited by Vanuatu - 17 Feb 2019 at 00:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 01:39
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And it's suddenly a cultural trigger, effective new age advertising. Anyone can put some English on the their cause.

I don't understand what you mean by this.Confused
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 03:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote
And it's suddenly a cultural trigger, effective new age advertising. Anyone can put some English on the their cause.

I don't understand what you mean by this.Confused
Comments from archaeologists enable the press to attempt a link from 
artifacts unearthed near Stonehenge to modern day Brexit as a "tendency" of Britain towards Europe.
The "English"is a billiards effect and the spin is from the media and politically driven scientists.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 06:42
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote
And it's suddenly a cultural trigger, effective new age advertising. Anyone can put some English on the their cause.

I don't understand what you mean by this.Confused
Comments from archaeologists enable the press to attempt a link from 
artifacts unearthed near Stonehenge to modern day Brexit as a "tendency" of Britain towards Europe.
The "English"is a billiards effect and the spin is from the media and politically driven scientists.

What a load of .....?
Stonehenge has nothing at all to do with it. It's all about the UK's wish to have more control of it's borders etc.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 14:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote
And it's suddenly a cultural trigger, effective new age advertising. Anyone can put some English on the their cause.

I don't understand what you mean by this.Confused
Comments from archaeologists enable the press to attempt a link from 
artifacts unearthed near Stonehenge to modern day Brexit as a "tendency" of Britain towards Europe.
The "English"is a billiards effect and the spin is from the media and politically driven scientists.

What a load of .....?
Stonehenge has nothing at all to do with it. It's all about the UK's wish to have more control of it's borders etc.
It's all madness my friend, it's "news" for emotional hemophiliacs.


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Feb 2019 at 14:17
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 08:15
The point that I was trying to make is that some people will attempt to associate a cause with a scientific or other momentous occasion in order to attract attention. I could just as easily say that BREXIT is based on the American War of Independence.

More false news!!!Wink
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 07:12
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The point that I was trying to make is that some people will attempt to associate a cause with a scientific or other momentous occasion in order to attract attention. I could just as easily say that BREXIT is based on the American War of Independence.

More false news!!!Wink
Yea you could!
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2019 at 02:32
"English" if I am correct is like a backspin in billiards or pool.  "Spin" is when politicians or media try to finesse the news instead of saying it, "straight up" (or "neat" in bar lingo) (as is).  So when a 'liberal' democrat in election does better than expected in a conservative district, but still looses, the media often will put spin on it, saying that they only lost by 10 points, instead of 20.

From what I understand, was it Cameron who called for the referendum election at a particularly bad time?  Expecting the election to be a foregone conclusion?  Don't ask the question unless you know you'll get the "correct" answer.  Of course, Putin probably had a hand in it too (whether he dabbled effectively is another question).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2019 at 14:48
Spin  is a bit of an understatement right now. Ian Blackford of the SNP (Scottish nationalists) is forever trying to berate the government in terms so blindingly obvious one wonders if he gets his ideas from his morning newspapers. Corbyn seems to have given up asking for a general election (he won't get one before Brexit) and now plays the sympathy vote, forever testing government patience by asking if the PM cares about job losses. The PM tests everyones patience by refusing to back down, though she has of late brought up the possibility of delaying Brexit until June when we will have to take part in European elections in order to get another delay or any further say in euro-policy. She doesn't want that. Truthfully, I don't either, but so many of the moaning minnies filing up the backbenches in Parliament are not really adhering to the spirit of democracy in my view. The issue of whether we leave was subject to a public referendum and the public voted to leave. That's the here all and end of it. To ignore that result is rather anti-democratic in my view, and why we need a second referendum now escapes me. Why? It onlty serves to create a possibility for remainers to change the British direction. Democracy? Let's keep voting until we get the result we want. Whatever happened t the Britain I knew and loved?
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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