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Carcharodon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 15:54
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
Carch, we have had this discussion; enough with the bashing of a school system you haven't even been in or around.  Go back to the thread about the US Educational system and reread it.  The statement that "the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is flat incorrect.  In fact, the public school system in NJ has many discussions of Native Americans, some of these units are in a positive light others not so much, but that's history. 
 
Well, in older times when Native Americans were forced into a system of forced cultural change in boarding schools and similar one really have to say that such a system was discriminating and opressive. If things would not be better today one would really be dissapointed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 20:42
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
Carch, we have had this discussion; enough with the bashing of a school system you haven't even been in or around.  Go back to the thread about the US Educational system and reread it.  The statement that "the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is flat incorrect.  In fact, the public school system in NJ has many discussions of Native Americans, some of these units are in a positive light others not so much, but that's history. 
 
Believe it or not, I'm actually going to agree with Carcharodon, albeit in a qualified sense. I can only speak for the school system in Alaska, in which groups were more or less "recruited" by the government, though the system was not technically "run" by it. For decades the natives were forbidden to learn their language or dress in their native garb. It was all part of the "Americanization" of Alaska, and has only eased up in the past several decades. There is a generation or so still alive that remembers it. I can't speak for the other regions in the lower 48, but in Alaska, and in a historical and not a present sense, the statement that "the American school system ahs a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is demonstrably correct. That said, there were certainly complicated factors at work in Alaska that wouldn't be present in other areas, so I'd be interested to know how things went elsewhere.
-Akolouthos
 
Et tu Ako? Plunging a dagger into History for the sake of the polemical? First, one can not even properly speak of an American school system until the middle of the 20th century in terms of bureaucracy and directives (and yes, the little bugaboo summarized as "standardization") hence it is a tad premature to attach prejudices to what simply did not exist. We all know that public education was a function of the local community, which answered and reflected, to its own environs. One might say that all of the evils being aspersed are the product of the "do gooders" of their day (in other words the polemical ancestors of our own dear Carch.) In a way, their perspective accepted the fact that education served as an instrument for integration and called for the elimination of all factors that might promote marginalization from the greater society. What is viewed as the bedevilment of the Amerind is little different than the process adopted toward immigrants as well. I will utter just a surname: Drexel. This wealthy Philadelphia family illustrates the power of activism and, if we are to discuss the topic at all, then its should be done with regard to the successful and not the opportunists. And here I will send a shudder down Carch's spine: St. Katharine Drexel ( to which we could add Elizabeth Seton and Frances Cabrini).
 
In away, and to be expected, Carch simply iterates the prejudices of his own desiderata and not the thought or motivations rooted to the history of the period under discussion. That matters are now further muddled by the polemics of the PCers can only lead to the positing of the irrational.
If education was not viewed as the principal dynamic in social integration throughout most of the immediate past century then we had best re-write the narrative on civil liberties and the purpose of all legislation debated since 1890!
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 01 Sep 2010 at 20:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 21:17
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.


***sigh*** I guess that explains the alienation i had felt when i went through the public school system? Too much time spent on discussing real historical events and not enough on soothing my racial pride. Ermm(snark)

I am sorry Carch. Maybe it is because my genes are too diluted in finding any sympathy with any particular group which causes me to find pandering to the races as anything other then contemptibly moronic?!


Edited by Panther - 01 Sep 2010 at 21:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 21:20
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
Carch, we have had this discussion; enough with the bashing of a school system you haven't even been in or around.  Go back to the thread about the US Educational system and reread it.  The statement that "the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is flat incorrect.  In fact, the public school system in NJ has many discussions of Native Americans, some of these units are in a positive light others not so much, but that's history. 
 
Believe it or not, I'm actually going to agree with Carcharodon, albeit in a qualified sense. I can only speak for the school system in Alaska, in which groups were more or less "recruited" by the government, though the system was not technically "run" by it. For decades the natives were forbidden to learn their language or dress in their native garb. It was all part of the "Americanization" of Alaska, and has only eased up in the past several decades. There is a generation or so still alive that remembers it. I can't speak for the other regions in the lower 48, but in Alaska, and in a historical and not a present sense, the statement that "the American school system ahs a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is demonstrably correct. That said, there were certainly complicated factors at work in Alaska that wouldn't be present in other areas, so I'd be interested to know how things went elsewhere.
 
-Akolouthos


I think it was/is different for each state. At least from what i recall from the eighties, US history as taught in Texas at the time seemed more even handed then, than the way it sounds today?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 05:17
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


***sigh*** I guess that explains the alienation i had felt when i went through the public school system? Too much time spent on discussing real historical events and not enough on soothing my racial pride. Ermm(snark)

I am sorry Carch. Maybe it is because my genes are too diluted in finding any sympathy with any particular group which causes me to find pandering to the races as anything other then contemptibly moronic?!
 
Prejudice is not always neccessarily aimed at races, it can be aimed at certain cultures or life styles too.


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Sep 2010 at 05:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 21:40
One man's discrimination is another's prejudice; however, Carch, prejudice is a function of the interpersonal! Only a fool would claim he is prejudiced against culture and life style is little other than jargon. One may live life with style or in style, but life style is little other than PC palaver meant to caricature the norm.
 
Only a blooming idiot can prejudge a culture and individuals discriminate on a daily basis even when it comes down to the color of one's socks. So spare us these assaults that in their manner have become little more than mimicry of popular catch-phrases in the world of agiprop.
 
Star Kist wants tuna that tastes good and not those with good taste!
 
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 22:42
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Et tu Ako? Plunging a dagger into History for the sake of the polemical? First, one can not even properly speak of an American school system until the middle of the 20th century in terms of bureaucracy and directives (and yes, the little bugaboo summarized as "standardization") hence it is a tad premature to attach prejudices to what simply did not exist. We all know that public education was a function of the local community, which answered and reflected, to its own environs.
 
Hence the qualifications were added. Wink And no, I am not, nor have I ever -- or, more truthfully, nor have I recently Embarrassed -- been interested in using history as a jumping off point for polemics.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 03 Sep 2010 at 14:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2010 at 14:04
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

One man's discrimination is another's prejudice; however, Carch, prejudice is a function of the interpersonal! Only a fool would claim he is prejudiced against culture and life style is little other than jargon. One may live life with style or in style, but life style is little other than PC palaver meant to caricature the norm.
 
Only a blooming idiot can prejudge a culture and individuals discriminate on a daily basis even when it comes down to the color of one's socks. So spare us these assaults that in their manner have become little more than mimicry of popular catch-phrases in the world of agiprop.
 
Star Kist wants tuna that tastes good and not those with good taste!
 
 
 
People prejudge things all the time. And something so visually and symbollically distinct as clothing is ofcource always under scrutiny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2010 at 21:54
Are you presenting yourself as an example of such, Carch? Hold it I think I hear Barbra Streisand meowing in the background...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2010 at 10:19
And also since clothing in many cases is an important marker of identity then it is one of the things that can be attacked when someone tries to weaken that identity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2010 at 19:30
Clothing is little more than a marking for conformity! Really, Carch, sometimes you say the oddest things. Listen to the song "Bowler Hat" from Sondheim's Pacific Overtures.
 
Kayama:
 
It's called a bowler hat.
I have no wife.
The swallow flying through the sky
Is not as swift as I
Am, flying through my life.
You pour the milk before the tea.
The Dutch ambassador is no fool.
I must remember that.


I wear a bowler hat.
They send me wine.
The house is far too grand.
I've bought a new umbrella stand.
Today I visited the church beside the shrine.
I'm learning English from a book.
Most exciting.
It's called a bowler hat.


(bringing out a watch)
It's called a pocket watch.
I have a wife.
No eagle flies against the sky
As eagerly as I
Have flown against my life.
One smokes American cigars.
The Dutch ambassador was most rude.
I will remember that.


I wind my pocket watch.
We serve white wine.
The house is far too small.
I killed a spider on the wall.
One of the servants thought it was a lucky sign.
I read Spinoza every day.
Formidable.
Where is my bowler hat?


(putting a monocle to his eye)
It's called a monocle.
I've left my wife.
No bird exploring in the sky
Explores as well as I
The corners of my life.
One must keep moving with the times.
The Dutch ambassador is a fool.
He wears a bowler hat.


(putting on a pair of glasses)
They call them spectacles.
I drink much wine.
I have a house up in the hills
I've hired British architects to redesign.
One must accomodate the times
As one lives them.
One must remember that.


(holding up a tailcoat)
It's called a cutaway …
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2010 at 21:13
Well, even the JEDI defend their right to wear the clothes they like:
 
Jedi religion founder accuses Tesco of discrimination over rules on hoods
 
 LOL 


Edited by Carcharodon - 04 Sep 2010 at 21:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 00:34
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, even the JEDI defend their right to wear the clothes they like:
 
Jedi religion founder accuses Tesco of discrimination over rules on hoods
 
 LOL 


Must of have been a very, VERY slow news day for the guardianistas? Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 05:27
ROTFLMAOLOL
 
Anyone that knows the details of the Star Wars saga would immediately understand that the sole character that kept his hoodie on was the Dark Lord himself! Carch, if you spent as much time reading veridical sources as you do news of the odd-and-weird you could be dangerous!


Edited by drgonzaga - 05 Sep 2010 at 05:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2010 at 13:09
Sometimes I read news about the odd and weird as a relaxation from the more serious and schoolarly stuff I read in connection with my work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 04:44
I can understand and sympathize with that, Carch. Heck, that's why i usually read you threads. Being in sore need of having a brief break from reality. TongueBig smileWink

Just kidding around of course. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 14:48
I think that Carch hits far too close to the bone for some people's comfort. Especially those with a religious disposition. I think a lot of the vitriol he constantly has to put up with is down to people who cannot find the truly adequate rebuttal to his largely valid points, broad as they may be.

So Carch, I say Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I think that Carch hits far too close to the bone for some people's comfort. Especially those with a religious disposition. I think a lot of the vitriol he constantly has to put up with is down to people who cannot find the truly adequate rebuttal to his largely valid points, broad as they may be.

So Carch, I say Thumbs Up
 
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2010 at 21:27
Dolphin, stop encouraging Carch in his truancy! indigenenous clothing is just so much bs and little more than a paen to folk dress, which like much else undergoes transmogrification in Time or often are but sheer later invention! It's way past the time for Carch to adopt the toga virilis and put away puerile fancies. Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 00:17
Now, now good doctor. It is one thing to disagree with Carcharodon's offering, but a totally different thing in actively discouraging him in expressing his opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2010 at 02:30
There is little doubt that clothing can have extreme cultural significance... who is one to tell anyone what not to wear? I'll tell you who.. the billion dollar fashion industry who loves walking skeletons and people who do not resemble anyone throughout human history Big smile

Just look at the billions of dollars spent on basketball sneaker adverts and sales... how many people actually play the game?

  
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