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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 10:05
But, if someone came up to Plato and said, 'you are criticizing the Athenians and their empire by your story.'  He could say, '_I_ am not criticizing the Athenians, the Athenians are the good guys in my story, no, you are criticizing the Athenians!'  You cannot take the Atlantis story, and say that is what he is doing, (criticizing the democracy and their imperial ways).  But, it definitely is in the background for the astute reader to notice the possibility (but not the certainty).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 16:23
If Atlantis is Plato's invention it is reasonable that he uses an extinct tribe from the past. Masking imperial criticism is necessary when there is no concept of fiction. 
The apocryphal texts about Jesus in the Middle Ages, (12th century) were the first improvised explanations for the gaps in the Bible story. 


“During the course of the Middle Ages, the supplementary stories were rewritten so many times that people eventually figured out that they were just tall tales and pretence. The most extreme examples are the historic accounts of the life of Alexander the Great,” he explains.

“Those books contain elements where Alexander the Great is flying in a kind of airplane. He sails in a submarine of sorts, and he meets a variety of mysterious beings. Those were popular books in the Middle Ages.”

In that way, people gradually got used to the fact that books could also be a form of entertainment – and that they were not necessarily telling the truth from cover to cover. Thus, the road was paved for the novels we know today.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2019 at 10:53
One thing in the Alexander Romance tales that we know must have happened, but there is no other report is Alexander becoming the Pharaoh (which must have happened because he would have to be pharaoh to rule Egypt).

I am not sure what you mean by 'extinct tribe.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2019 at 11:16
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


I am not sure what you mean by 'extinct tribe.'
That would be the Atlanteans, if they exsisted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 20:52
Quote One thing in the Alexander Romance tales that we know must have happened, but there is no other report is Alexander becoming the Pharaoh (which must have happened because he would have to be pharaoh to rule Egypt).
He gave Egypt to his general Ptolemy, who became pharaoh and founded the Macedonian dynasty that came crashing to an end when entangled with Rome.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 10:52
I tend to see it as Ptolemy took Egypt after the death of Alexander III in Babylon.  He also took Alexander's body, the presence of which in Alexandria endorsed the Ptolemaic dynasty's right to rule.

Upon his death, the "Empire" fragmented into three major parts, Ptolemaic Egypt, the Seleukid Empire (Seleukos), and the Macedonian Empire encompassing Greece, I forget who got that bit (Cassander?? and _______??)  Ptolemaic dynasty lasted the longest though.

Back to the issue of Atlantis, if anyone knew anything, it would have been Aristotle, who taught Alexander and the generals, or the priests in Egypt, or the library of Alexandria.
Sprague De Camp lists in his book "Lost Continents" all the ancient quotes he can find about Atlantis, looking at the list, the only thing that cannot be derived from Plato is the name of the Egyptian priest that Solon saw, Sonchis (or something like that).  That however, can be figured out from succession lists for the priesthood regardless of whether the tale of Atlantis, shall we say, "holds water."

We have all of Plato's writings, and then some (attributed to him that probably came from the academy.  But, Aristotle also refers to the unwritten doctrines of Plato which Plato taught in lectures but did not write down.  These are probably Pythagorean teachings. Walter Burkert writes that what we have as Pythagorean teachings, are actually Platonic, or one might say, Platonic 'exoteric' teachings that have been promoted by the Platonists, instead of the "real" thing the unwritten doctrines.  So, yes, there are secrets in the Academy of Plato, and Aristotle does refer to them.  But, nowhere does Aristotle refer to Atlantis.  If Atlantis existed, then you would expect Aristotle to know about it,  And if he knew about it, then why didn't he mention something, like he mentions the unwritten doctrines?

There is a saying, three men can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.  Are we to expect Aristotle to maintain silence even after he broke with Plato?  Aristotle was Plato's greatest student, and Plato promoted his nephew instead of Aristotle.  Aristotle started his own school.  Of course, all of Plato's works still survive so maybe Plato (and Speusippus) did something right.  We don't have all of Aristotle's works.



Edited by franciscosan - 31 Dec 2019 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 12:33
Does Aristotle agree with Plato's ideas about the natural world or simultaneity as presented in the Timaeus?
If they did disagree about the Demiurge or Intellect but Aristotle is silent on Atlantis. *Aristotle might not have agreed with Plato but he didn't know for sure so he couldn't denounce the Atlantis story. 
What Plato says about Being and Becoming is mind blowing.


Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Jan 2020 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 02:31
You mean Aristotle might not have agreed.... (not Plato).

Aristotle does have a different notion of the ideas than Plato has.  If there was anything to know about Atlantis in Plato's Academy, Aristotle would have known it.  Therefore, the other possibility is that there was nothing to know, except the surface story in the Timaeus and the Critias fragment.  Or, of course, there is a third possibility, that Aristotle knew and deemed that it just was not that important.

There is a story about a lecture by Plato called "On the Good." which was so difficult that everybody left, except for Aristotle.  Sounds like a relatively innocent title, but it involved what was then high level mathematics.  No, it is not clear how mathematics relates to the Good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 10:33
I think that the faith in the existence (and meaning) of Atlantis is irrational.

But I want to ask, is there a time when to be (?excessively??) rational is irrational?  
Or is there a time when to be irrational is quite rational?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 10:49
Scientists had insisted that red and blue light were the only parts of the light spectrum that effected plant growth. Recent research proves that green also promotes growth in vegetation.

Analysis of data directed research for decades, down a blind alley and became dogma. 

Why in the world would "science" insist that only part of the light spectrum has an effect on the growth of vegetation? Overly Rationalized Analysis to the point of being Irrational!


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Mar 2020 at 10:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 14:04
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that the faith in the existence (and meaning) of Atlantis is irrational.

But I want to ask, is there a time when to be (?excessively??) rational is irrational?  
Or is there a time when to be irrational is quite rational?

 "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,"

I don't know whether Atlantis ever existed or not. I believe that it is possible, given the volatility of the tectonic plate movement and earthquakes.

I don't believe that it is rational to dismiss it's existence out of hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2020 at 22:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that the faith in the existence (and meaning) of Atlantis is irrational.

But I want to ask, is there a time when to be (?excessively??) rational is irrational?  
Or is there a time when to be irrational is quite rational?

 "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,"

I don't know whether Atlantis ever existed or not. I believe that it is possible, given the volatility of the tectonic plate movement and earthquakes.

I don't believe that it is rational to dismiss it's existence out of hand.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/rising-seas-swallowed-countless-archaeological-sites-scientists-want-them-back

There are hundreds of Atlantean or unknown sunken cities all over the globe. Why not near the Pillars of Hercules?
The article estimates collectively there are enough underwater ancient buildings and columns around the coasts to fill North America. Rising sea levels and disasters caused by the wobble in the earth's Axis have effected entire civilizations. Good article.
For most of our species’ existence, sea levels have been lower than they are today, often by hundreds of feet, exposing a continent’s worth of dry land (shown in red). Archaeological sites key to understanding the human story are likely now underwater — but perhaps not lost. (Credit: Deep Time Maps/Alison Mackey/Discover)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2020 at 16:04
Don't just limit the search to still currently submerged/sunken cities. There are sites that were submerged/sunken but didn't stay so.

The only way to determine whether Atlantis is real or not is to prove that it is real or not. One proves it is real by taking the text and using it like a treasure map to look in world history to see if there is a strong match (while not bending/twisting the text). List all the details given in the account and show the site matches them all.

The problem is though that they have far too excessive highest maximum "standards" of what they accept as proof. They won't even give a fair consideration unless it is 99 percent complete.

Some maps etc from my search
http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean



Edited by truthsetsfree - 27 Mar 2020 at 16:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2020 at 16:52
TSF:
Quote The only way to determine whether Atlantis is real or not is to prove that it is real or not. One proves it is real by taking the text and using it like a treasure map to look in world history to see if there is a strong match (while not bending/twisting the text). List all the details given in the account and show the site matches them all.

  1. It's almost impossible to prove a negative in a case like this;
  2. The text, by Plato, was written about 9000 years after Atlantis allegedly sank;
  3. Plato's writings have not been corroborated by other incontrovertible evidence;
  4. The Pillars of Hercules is a pretty good indication of where Atlantis was located (if it existed at all), not somewhere on the coast of the Middle Sea.
Treasure doesn't come into the conversation at any stage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2020 at 21:52
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

Don't just limit the search to still currently submerged/sunken cities. There are sites that were submerged/sunken but didn't stay so.

The only way to determine whether Atlantis is real or not is to prove that it is real or not. One proves it is real by taking the text and using it like a treasure map to look in world history to see if there is a strong match (while not bending/twisting the text). List all the details given in the account and show the site matches them all.

The problem is though that they have far too excessive highest maximum "standards" of what they accept as proof. They won't even give a fair consideration unless it is 99 percent complete.

Some maps etc from my search
http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean

My good man the link leads to ERROR 404 I have tried to check this link before, get it sorted and I'll be glad to check it out. Thanks, hope you are well.

On the topic of ancient texts, they may cause most of the confusion. If texts such as Timaeus are accurate but the geography has changed then which source should be followed? 
The description of land and outlying markers? 
Or the estimates in texts? Texts that seem to prefer to leave an impression, not so much of a map. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2020 at 17:38
The way I found it was to narrow down out of the whole world where it can or cant be. Using the Atlantis Account as the primary text (or map) and using knowledge of world geography etc: Was Atlantis west or east? Which of the 7 continents are ruled out or ruled in? Which off the 5 oceans are ruled out/in? Was Atlantis a large land mass or only a small island/city? Etc. Some of these geography things haven't changed in "9000" years (and Atlantis was not literally 9000 years because the text makes it clear that Athens and Sais were contemporary, etc).  If you wish to discuss these then you or i can pick one at a time (too difficult discussing more than one point at a time). Things get more complicated with things like the pillars of Hercules because there were a dozen ancient locations of the pillars, and the pillars were the furtherest/farthest end of the known world while people dispute what extent the known world was. The texts also have changed in that English translations are very inaccurate.
Providing "incontrovertible" evidence is not easy because it requires presenting a excessive highest maximum standards case that is so compelling that it can't be denied (which takes immense time and effort), and people are able to dispute almost everything/anything if they so desire.


Edited by truthsetsfree - 28 Mar 2020 at 17:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 08:25
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

  If you wish to discuss these then you or i can pick one at a time (too difficult discussing more than one point at a time).

Ok, good. Can you start by telling me about the latitude or anything in the text that indicates where on the globe the Iberian peninsula/Gibraltar were in Relation to Gulf of Mexico?


Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Mar 2020 at 08:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 17:11
Can't do it like that. There is not only one way. But a quick rough answer attempt of that:
Latitude: i discuss in a section on was Atlantis north or south, which includes mention of Atlantis facing south and being sheltered from the north wind, and how "was then under the sun" may connect with Peru once being on the equator prior to pole shift, and how there is no ice mentioned in the account, and how the words "from next Libya" implies off Africa. Atlas mountains in nw Africa also imply Atlantis is opposite Africa. Statue in Azores points west with word "this way".   These indicate a rough latitude.
Iberia & Mexico: well if Gadeira is Gades in Spain then the Account says that the Gadeira part of Atlantis was towards Gades, which would match either north/central America or n.e. South America.
If one accepts pillars of Hercules near Gibraltar then Atlantis was opposite there, and since there is on sunken/submerged landmass in Atlantic it can only be referring to Americas. Others though have believed that the Americas match the Opposite Continent in the Account.
The Account gives indications of where Atlantis was in relation to Iberia, whether or not it does Mexico.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 17:24
I think that belief in Atlantis, and in aliens, and Nessie, and big foot and ancient astronauts are not based on evidence, more likely they are based on the reaction a paradigm to scientific paradigm whose view of the world is extremely limited.  This scientific paradigm says, "this is what there is." but then again there is always something coming around the corner for which the establishment is not prepared to meet.  It is not reasonable IMO to believe in Atlantis, aliens, pyramid power, etc based solely on evidential reasons.  It is however, reasonable to believe in such things as a counterweight to a scientistic worldview that want to classify everything and stick a pin through it pinning to a board like you see dead butterflies.  When science threatens to define everything as dead matter, imagination says, "what a minute.  Aren't we throwing the soul out with the bathwater?"
But, don't let me get in the way of truthsetsfree's method of approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 00:04
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

Can't do it like that. There is not only one way. But a quick rough answer attempt of that:
Latitude: i discuss in a section on was Atlantis north or south, which includes mention of Atlantis facing south and being sheltered from the north wind, and how "was then under the sun" may connect with Peru once being on the equator prior to pole shift, and how there is no ice mentioned in the account, and how the words "from next Libya" implies off Africa. Atlas mountains in nw Africa also imply Atlantis is opposite Africa. 
Can you talk about the time period? When in time was Atlantis "from Next Libya"?
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 00:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that belief in Atlantis, and in aliens, and Nessie, and big foot and ancient astronauts are not based on evidence, more likely they are based on the reaction a paradigm to scientific paradigm whose view of the world is extremely limited.  This scientific paradigm says, "this is what there is." but then again there is always something coming around the corner for which the establishment is not prepared to meet.  It is not reasonable IMO to believe in Atlantis, aliens, pyramid power, etc based solely on evidential reasons.  It is however, reasonable to believe in such things as a counterweight to a scientistic worldview that want to classify everything and stick a pin through it pinning to a board like you see dead butterflies.  When science threatens to define everything as dead matter, imagination says, "what a minute.  Aren't we throwing the soul out with the bathwater?"
But, don't let me get in the way of truthsetsfree's method of approach.
Thom Campbell gives a brief elegant talk on the Double Slit experiment. The photons or Buckyballs, a larger target are now used to recreate the Thomas Young 1803 demonstration of particle/wave distribution.
When researchers were watching, Bucky Balls behave as was expected and entered one or another slit in an ordered particle fashion. When the researcher looks away, then random wave pile up occurs, light behaves more like a random computer simulated program. According to Campbell it explains the mathematical/physics disconnect on light waves and particles.

It may be that any space re adjusts when eyeballs are part of the experience, space ceases to be numbers in a notebook. The abstract becomes concrete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 17:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that belief in Atlantis, and in aliens, and Nessie, and big foot and ancient astronauts are not based on evidence, more likely they are based on the reaction a paradigm to scientific paradigm whose view of the world is extremely limited.  This scientific paradigm says, "this is what there is." but then again there is always something coming around the corner for which the establishment is not prepared to meet.  It is not reasonable IMO to believe in Atlantis, aliens, pyramid power, etc based solely on evidential reasons.  It is however, reasonable to believe in such things as a counterweight to a scientistic worldview that want to classify everything and stick a pin through it pinning to a board like you see dead butterflies.  When science threatens to define everything as dead matter, imagination says, "what a minute.  Aren't we throwing the soul out with the bathwater?"
But, don't let me get in the way of truthsetsfree's method of approach.


The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

What i did was just take the text and objectively looked to see if i could find Atlantis. Same as i did with the bible and other sources. One can't judge without first looking to see if there is or is not a match in history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 17:55
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Can you talk about the time period? When in time was Atlantis "from Next Libya"?
Thanks



I have not yet decoded the 9000 years date. It might be 900 years. All i know is that Atlantis was not literally 9000 years before Solon but was contemporary with Athens and Sais (according to the text).
Having a biblical worldview i see Atlantis as being founded a little after Sumerian like Peruvian was. The invasion and war and sinking were during the bronze age just before the iron age. If the Atlanteans are the same as the Sea Peoples then that latter were around in the 19th and 20th dynasties of Egypt. There were 4 world ages and Atlantis was the "3rd deluge" (according to the text).
Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku has matches for the dates of Atlantis.

(Below is a table of attempt at possible synthesis of dated events in different sources.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 15:30
"Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku has matches for the dates of Atlantis."

Are you talking about deluge or meteors in So America? 

Pausanius -150 BC "Far West of the Ocean their lies a group of islands whose inhabitants are red-skinned and whose hair is like that of the horse!"

Persians?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 17:02
"Are you talking about deluge or meteors in So America?"

Not sure what you mean. There are signs of a flood of water and of quakes at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku which was the capital city of Atlantis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 17:17
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

"Are you talking about deluge or meteors in So America?"

Not sure what you mean. There are signs of a flood of water and of quakes at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku which was the capital city of Atlantis.
Yes that is what I meant, signs of cataclysm. Is this Atlantis what was referred to as "Western Ethiopia?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 16:48
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

[QUOTE=truthsetsfree]
Is this Atlantis what was referred to as "Western Ethiopia?"


I haven't seen or heard of Western Ethiopia, where did you get that from? I think have seen the south Atlantic being called the Ethiopian sea or Erythrean sea.

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Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

Is this Atlantis what was referred to as "Western Ethiopia?"


[QUOTE=truthsetsfree]I haven't seen or heard of Western Ethiopia, where did you get that from? I think have seen the south Atlantic being called the Ethiopian sea or Erythrean sea.

Did Hanno see the Southern view of the destruction of Atlantis 500BC? The Plato Project-https://platoproject.gr/voyage-hanno-carthaginian/
Image 1. The voyage of colonization by the king of the Carthaginians, Hanno. The complete ancient text and its connotatively accurate translation is in the book “The Apocalypse* of a Myth.” (Greek Version – only the relevant translation is in the English Version). The waterways no longer exist and some rivers and gullies are too few to allow water travel. The route is hypothetical of course, devised according to the journey as described in the ancient text. The most definite location is that of the Pillars of Hercules. It matches perfectly and is in absolute conformity as to the distance and duration of the voyage from Carthage to the cove of the bay of Gabes.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/article/blameless-ethiopians-and-others/666E0B32E1C2FE6D70D255800D01C2E2
There is general agreement that from Homer onwards references in Classical writers to Ethiopia and the Ethiopians are almost never to modern Ethiopia or to the highland peoples who were the ancestors or predecessors of present-day inhabitants of the Ethiopian plateau. Homer's Ethiopians are indeed almost in the realm of Märchen; gods visit them, or are reported among them when they absent themselves from Olympus; they are ἔσχατοι ἀνδρν, and without fault or blame; and their only human visitor is Mene-laus. But they are not perhaps wholly fairy-tale. Some Ethiopians fought on the Trojan side in die war (under their king Memnon, son of Tithonus and Eos), and the lost Aethiopis, from the Epic Cycle, will have dealt with this. The notorious disjunction of Eastern and Western Ethiopians has a factual ring about it; and Ethiopians might be found in West Africa as well as in East, as Hanno discovered in his voyage in the early fifth century B.c., and in India as well as Africa; for the name, it seems, may be applied to dark-skinned people generally.

Pliny the Elder wrote in section 5.8 of his Natural History that:

If we pass through the interior of Africa in a southerly direction, beyond the Gætuli, after having traversed the intervening deserts, we shall find, first of all the Liby-Egyptians, and then the country where the Leucæthiopians dwell.[2]

Oric Bates [fr] notes that Ptolemy wrote of the White Aethiopians and the Melanogaetulians, and compares this to the mention by Orosius of the Libyoaethopians. Bates places the White Aethiopians in Morocco and the Melanogaetulians just to the east of them, claiming Ptolemy's authority for this, and arguing that "These descriptives are good evidence of the ancient opposition of whites and blacks in the Sahara, and of their fusion."[3] Bates further compares these claims with what he argues is the "marked xanthochroid element of foreign (Nordic) origin" in Morocco, i.e. a mixing of light-skinned people from Northern Europe.[3]

Pomponius Mela wrote, in Frank E. Romer's translation, that "On those shores washed by the Libyan Sea, however, are found the Libyan Aegyptians, the White Aethiopians, and, a populous and numerous nation, the Gaetuli. Then a region, uninhabitable in its entire length, covers a broad and vacant expanse."[4]

Both Herodotus[5] and Strabo[6] "speak of two Ethiopias, one eastern, the other western". Strabo also said that the ancient Greeks "designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries towards the ocean", not just a region near Egypt. Ephorus asserted that the White Ethiopians came from the Far East. Philostratus claimed that "The Indians are the wisest of mankind. The Ethiopians are a colony of them".[7]



Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Apr 2020 at 17:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 17:22
I don't know about Ethiopians of any complexion coming from the Far East originating in Israel, it my understanding that some of the Lost Tribes moves to the broad area of Mesopotamia.

The Falashas in recent times practised an ancient form of Judaism not seen for centuries. Their origins have been confirmed and they were permitted to migrate to Israel under the Right of Return.

I've always subscribed to the view that they, or at least the Falashas,  more likely stem from the Lost Tribes of Israel, and I don't know how or whether science corroborates that.

Quote

Beta Israel of Ethiopia  from Wiki 

Main article: Beta Israel

The Beta Israel ("House of Israel") are Ethiopian Jews, who were also called "Falashas" in the past.[53] Some members of the Beta Israel, as well as several Jewish scholars, believe that they are descended from the lost Tribe of Dan, as opposed to the traditional story of their descent from the Queen of Sheba.[44][48][54][29] They have a tradition of being connected to Jerusalem.[55] Early DNA studies showed that they were descended from Ethiopians, but in the 21st century, new studies have shown their possible descent from a few Jews who lived in either the 4th or 5th century, possibly in Sudan.[31][56] The Beta Israel made contact with other Jewish communities in the later 20th century. In 1973 Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, then the Chief Sephardic Rabbi, based on the Radbaz and other accounts, ruled that the Beta Israel were Jews and should be brought to Israel; two years later that opinion was confirmed by a number of other authorities who made similar rulings, including the Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Shlomo Goren.[57]


And what all of this has to do with Atlantis, perhaps someone could enlighten me.



Edited by toyomotor - 01 Apr 2020 at 17:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 18:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I don't know about Ethiopians of any complection coming from the Far East.

I've always subscribed to the view that they more likely stem from the Lost Tribes of Israel, and I don't know how or whether science corroborates that.
It's has been documented for hundreds of years, Libyans breed with Arabs and Northern Europeans and Saharans/Nubians with Arabs and Northern Europeans. Great diversity of genetics in modern day Morocco and Southern Egypt, also diverse in Sudan with Arab and NE ancestry. The Eastern Ethiopians, could be Natufians.

West Asian sources of the Eurasian component in Ethiopians: a reassessment Published: 


An exploration of the AF component of contemporary Ethiopians (see Supplementary Fig. S6) shows that, prior to the Eurasian arrival in the area, the sampled populations could be described as falling within a relatively homogeneous East African diversity focus, of which contemporary Gumuz seem to be the most plausible representative among available samples. Furthermore our results seem to indicate a reduced or absent genetic impact of the West African Bantu expansion in the area. We then explored the Ethiopian NAF component through ADMIXTURE (Fig. S7) and projected PCA, and showed them to fall within the range of Eurasian populations, close to ancient populations with a high Anatolian Neolithic component (e.g. Anatolia_N and Minoans) and away from neighboring populations from the Arabian Peninsula (Figs. 2 and S2 for Amhara). The PCA position shown by Amhara in Fig. 2 is superimposable to the ones of Oromo, Ethiopian Somali and Wolayta NAF components (Figs. S3S5) accounting for overall homogeneity of the Ethiopian NAF components extracted by AD. Notably, several Jewish populations from North Africa cluster with NAF as well. The affinity between Anatolian Neolithic and NAF was further highlighted by Outgroup f3 statistic, in contrast to results obtained with the genomes before ancestry deconvolution (Supplementary Fig. S8). Overall, whole-genome sequences of all the Ethiopian populations appear closer to ancient broadly West Asian populations such as: Minoans, Natufian, Levant Neolithic and Anatolian Neolithic. On the other hand, their NAF components appear closer to populations with a high Anatolian rather than Levantine component (such as Minoans, Sardinians and Anatolia Neolithic). North African (Tunisian, Libyan and Moroccan) Jews (See Fig. S6)
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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