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Atlantis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:27
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:42
"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 

 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 


It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude mayhave changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  

Yes, at least the eastern end of known Europe.

But, all we have is Plato's writings,  no further proof although quite a few have quoted him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 07:41


If Atlantis of the Atlantis Account is true then it is found in other sources and in the true site.
Some think that the Medinet Habu inscription about the Sea Peoples matches the Atlanis Account's ivasion of the Atlanteans.
One has to objectively  look to see it there is a quality match in real history without bending the details of the account.
Tiahauanaco/Tiwanaku does has strong matches with  the capital city of Atlantis.  I can supply this further proof ifyou wish (though I already did in another forum).
The great city of Asshur in Genesis 10 may match both Tiahauanaco and Atlantis city.
The Atlantiss Account is ont Plato's. It came to Plato from Sonchis and Solon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:27
But therein also provides a clue that the story was a "hand me down" which could have been exagerated over time. This is not uncommon practice.

Could it be that a story was made up, repeated and added to until the final Plato version was produced?

Modern scientists have explored the sea floor in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean near Gibraltar but nothing suggestive of Atlantis has been found, although, I suppose, over the millenia all traces could have been covered by silt.

I would totally reject claims that Atlantis may have been somewhere to the west, closer to the USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 13:23
And yet, we are in the time of Solon, and even in the time of Plato, at an early stage of literacy, which means that people often still had good memories for important things.  But, still I believe that grandfather Critias had to be quite old and the younger Critias quite young when the story was passed from one to the other, the younger being perhaps 8 or 9.

Ocean geology is different than Continental (and I assume, Island) geology.  The oceans are heavy Basaltic rock, whereas the continents are lighter granitic rock sliding on top of the basaltic rock.
There are no great candidates for a sunken Atlantic, let alone Mu or Lemuria.
Underwater sonar maps have pretty much shown that.

Sonchis is not mentioned in Plato, and in my opinion, comes from outside sources, being an Egyptian priest contemporary with Solon (therefore "must" be the priest talking to Solon.)

I consider most if not all accounts derivative of Plato, as the Carthaginians gave way to the Romans, it was necessary to push the location of Atlantis further out, for the 'just' beyond the pillars of Hercules didn't cut it any more.

Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:03
"Gather 'round the fire children and I'll tell you a story of a wonderous land which disappeared without trace........"

I await the outcome of scientific searches before I'll accept some of the stories from our ancient past.

Of course, there were stories told just for entertainment. Could this be another one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:06
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude may have changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.
Yes but if North America is covered in ice then no one has crossed Beringia land bridge and no one theoretically is living in South America. What is the timeline? 


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

[/QUOTE]
Critias has motivation to construct a narrative. Critias has been compared to Robespierre for the "iniquitous deeds" (Plato) of the Thirty Tyrants after Athens was conquered. 
wiki-The Thirty Tyrants-
If the poles and plates were moving in such a way that it brought Africa and South America back into close vicinity then why is the enormous event barely mentioned?

Encyclopedia.com Continental Drift-
Another important piece of evidence was discovered in the early twentieth century. When molten lava freezes, it preserves traces of Earth's magnetic field. Basalt, which freezes deep underground, also records Earth's magnetic field at the time the basalt cooled. Measurements of the direction of Earth's magnetic field from many different rocks of different ages on different continents indicate either that Earth's magnetic poles have moved all over the planet or that the continents themselves have moved.
 


Edited by Vanuatu - 19 Sep 2019 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
Was Plato possibly in the position of Josephus a kind of captive historian? Is Plato describing penalty for impiety? 

Could the Atlantis example have been allegorical for the defeat of Athens, without naming them?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 02:18
Plato was an Athenian aristocrat, during a time that Athens leaned democratically, sometimes bordering on mob rule.  Dialogues are a means of writing that are good for getting a message past critics.  Is the message of the character of Socrates the same as Plato's message?  How can you tell?  What about the Laws, in which Socrates does not appear, except maybe as "the Athenian Stranger."  The Atlantis story is not told by the character of Socrates, so even if the message of the character of Socrates is the same as Plato's message, the story of Atlantis is from someone else.  Is that too part of Plato's message???  Does it even have to be either/or?

As far as allegorical is concerned:
1) Yes, it could be, 2) no, it is not obvious that it is. 3) if it was obvious, then Plato's critics probably could use it to get at him.  4) But, they can't, can they?  Because, obviously the Athenians are the good guys of the story.  Right? 

To me, the big question is what does the Atlantis story have to do with the rest of it, a cosmology told by Timaeus?  Some scholars consider the Atlantis story a little sugar to sweeten the cosmological medicine which is a lot less digestible.  It makes as much (or as little) sense as anything else.  Still, not very satisfying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2019 at 12:47

The only way to prove the Atlantis Account is true or fiction is to first objectively and throughly look to see if there is any strong match in history, instead of just assuming/asserting that it is a fiction of Plato's or just a handed down story.

The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

I could post some evidences but i want to know i am ot wasting my time first. Otherwise see my post in rival forum a year ago http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 . What one or more matches evidences would convince people?

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