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Atlantis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 14:32
The only place we learn of the story of Atlantis, is Plato's telling, in the Timaeus and the Critias.  Therefore, Domino, I think you should be rather leary of dismissing parts of Plato's story.  The fantasy/science fiction author Sprague DeCamp wrote a book called Lost Continents in which he
dealt with Atlantis, Mu, and Lemuria.  Regarding Atlantis, he said that if you follow the descriptions,
you will find nothing there, and if you don't follow the descriptions, then you are not talking about Atlantis.  One thing DeCamp does is he lists all the mentions of Atlantis from Plato into the Middle Ages, they all, however, are derived from Plato.  There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.  I wonder how the Athenians (or Atlantians) could have gotten back and forth across the Atlantic.  It is one thing to putter around the Mediterranean, it is another to outfit ships for the full male population of Athens and go across the Ocean to wage war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 22:04
Quote I’m suggesting that the world has not changed very much in the last 11,000 to 12,000 years.
The world has changed considerably since then. I live in a town surrounded by typical English countryside. 12,000 years ago there was ice up to a mile thick burying the area. Just south of my home was arctic tundra and rocky wilderlands barely inhabited. The North Sea did not exist - it was dry land, now called Doggerland by researchers.
 
The ice retreated quickly as the global warming of that age was incredibly sudden. Forests soon emerged, later cleared by the increasing interference by human populations. I would point out that the inundation of Doggerland was a more gradual process and the inhabitants were mostly paleolithic migrant tribes rather than sophisticated Atlanteans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 00:19
Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.

Franciscosan,


I can show you the physical terrain features that Plato described and present that as evidence in a logical sequence. However, I cannot argue with you about it because you are denying the evidence. When I show you the small Island of Atlantis and match it to Plato’s description, I think that is not only a conformation in literature, but is also a conformation in geography. What world it take to convince you that Plato’s description of the Plain of Atlantis matches the Florida Plain?




Edited by Domino - 17 Aug 2019 at 09:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:13
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 11:51
So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 13:38
Originally posted by Domino Domino wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?

Yes.
Crete Delos and Thera aka Santorini have been called the new Atlantis. It was the remnant of a great trading partner, Minoans perhaps.

The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.



Edited by Vanuatu - 17 Aug 2019 at 13:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 21:04

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility. But pyramid building (and the native Americans of the mid northern continent came around to that sort of monumentalist architecture independently too albeit very briefly) has more to do with human psychology than any supposed common knowledge or culture. It is worth pointing out that old and new world socieities had little in common. Also, since the heavens are available on both sides of the Atlantic to ogle at, observation and record keeping by more sophisticated civilisations should be expected.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 01:57
Yea, a collective unconscious the Operating System. The Legacy memory. 
The idea of The Warning in form of flooding or any water destruction may be reasonably linked to man's misbehavior. There is always an element of greed before the disaster. Jordan Petersen said the version we read today is condensed so every detail has meaning. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 05:31
 Vanuatu, about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 11:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.

Franciscosan, 

As I said earlier in this discussion, people make mistakes in translation and interpretation. That is what happened in Plato’s description of the small island of Atlantis. People made mistakes in both reading and interpretation. Yes, Plato did say that there were three circular moats around the first castle, but he also said that they bridged over those waterways and made a road. Then, they cut three canal through the wise to create the island. This triangular Island of Atlantis had a diameter of .5 miles. Also, you have to realize that Plato did not have a map to reverence.  The castle was on a hill that Plato translated as being a mountain that was not very high. Later, he called it a hill. The hill is still there. I believe that if you read Plato’s story again, you will find that the canals were straight.

Plato describing the moats:

“and breaking the ground, enclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water,”

Plato describing construction in the area:

“First of all, they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.”

Plato later in the story:

“And beginning from the sea, they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbor, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.”


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39
Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Yes, people do make mistakes in translation and interpretation.  I hope you have studied Greek in order to try to mitigate the mistakes you may make in translation and interpretation.  I hope that you have read the Timaeus and tried to figure out the context in which such tale(s) are presented.

I don't get what this "wise" is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 01:16
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility.  

Agree, so the idea of weather/ geological changes like a "La Nina" or earth quake/tsunami- could have created limited opportunity for someone setting sail near the Azores to wander close to South America. 
Were it not for Trade Winds Thor would have been up doldrums's creek without a hammer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 06:53
Franciscosan, 

Benjamin Jowett used the term, wise, in his translation to describe the Plateau like land formation that held the royal palace. When they dug the canals, they divided the wise into two islands and one other land zone. This resulted in the triangular island being surrounded by two zones of land and three zones of water. This caused confusion in Plato’s story because it sounds the same as a castle surrounded by three  moats.

Plato:

“The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise: In the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold;”

Check out the divided wise using the map Image: https://goo.gl/maps/ixjnFPA9VthNmEUi6


Since the story has been translated by different translators, you will find that different terms are used in different ways.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:02
Well it seems to me that modern scanning methods could easily find Plato's Atlantean canals without difficulty. Funnily enough, nothing of the sort has been found, Florida or elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:07
Quote about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. Nor does the website establish definitive detail about a date for an asteroid/comet bombardment, especially sine the site does mention that erosion factors push the date back to 140,000 years.
 
The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis was soundly rejected by the scientific community (Pinter, et al. 2011)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Franciscosan,

Yes, they could cross the Atlantic. According to Plato, the country of Atlantis alone had 1,200 ships. The other nine countries had their own military forces. I believe the ships were kept in a harbor found on Davis Island. Follow the link to see the Atlantis harbour.

https://goo.gl/maps/8bUTN6oczb7vmHtGA


Also, Plato tells us how community leaders in Atlantis supplied men for the military service.


Plato:

“The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of war chariots, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots. Also two horses and riders for them, a pair of chariot-horses without a seat accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield. Also a charioteer, who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; and, he was bound to furnish two heavily armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city—the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.”

The military force of Atlantis that attempted to rule the world consisted of the combined forces of the ten counties that made up to Kingdom of Atlantis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 04:49
I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Watch the 2 or 3 minute video on youtube on the trireme Olympias (in the modern Greek Navy).  Do you believe that one of those (or 1200 of those) could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or, rather, do you believe that a fleet of those could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or maybe you believe that the Atlantians had super advanced vessels, do you believe that the Athenians also had super advanced, "mystical" vessels?  

I don't necessarily expect an answer, I just would like you to ask yourself those things.

The translation of the _Timaeus_and _Critias_ that I use is the Desmond Lee translation from Penguin Classics, in it he has a _circular_ map of the city according to the text.  That is why I assume the city and the citadel are on a circular plan.  Jowett was a Victorian, and his translation is a Victorian translation, he wasn't wrong for his time but is a little dated and stilted.  The main virtue of the Jowett translations these days, is that the copyright has lapsed, and so anyone can use them or publish them.  Our understanding of Greek has changed (developed 'further') and English usage has drifted, so that usages (wise) that were once familiar, sound odd these days.  But, from what I understand Jowett is good, overall, it is just that there other translations that are (maybe only incrementally) better.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Aug 2019 at 04:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 23:55
francisosan, according to the translation that you have are Timaeus and Critias telling Socrates about an event that actually took place? From the POV of the storyteller is it meant to be believed? "not a fiction, but a true story" 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 14:36
Franciscosan wrote, in part
Quote I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Plato was born in about 424BC, the Trireme was built about 700BC which in terms of time is about 275 years before Plato was born, so he would have had the ability to know about them.

A popular idea is that Atlantis was written as an allegory, a representation of the threats facing ancient Greece.

If that is correct, Atlantis never actually existed.

It's occurred to me that as Timaeus and Critias were born about 60 odd years before Plato, it could have been that Plato took the story of Atlantis, and used Timaeus and Critias as proof that Atlantis existed. 

Quote
https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Classic Literature › Study Guides
 
Oct 5, 2018 - According to the dialogues, Socrates asked three men to meet him on this day: Timaeus of Locri, Hermocrates of Syracuse, and Critias of Athens. Socrates asked the men to tell him stories about how ancient Athens interacted with other states. ... The Atlantis tale is part of a Socratic dialogue, not a historical treatise.

I could accept the allegory theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 06:30
Hi Domino, I don't know whether you have seen this, it's new to Nat Geo. Around 541 AD there's a massive eruption of Ilopango on the coast of Guatemala. The dates that coincide with Plato don't agree with the dating of this eruption but dates are sketchy things. Those who know admit that Plato's writings could be and likely are a composite work that was compiled over centuries.* Plato is descended from gods, knows Pythagoreans too? 
He seems as impossible as Jesus Christ. 
Isn't it possible that a meteor shower creating the geological evidence of bombardment could have been a volcanic eruption further south? And not during Plato's presumed lifetime? Between 12,000 and 140,000 years of sea dispersing the evidence of bombardment isn't a long time geologically but in 404 BC the Athenians were at war with Sparta, right? 


In 2001, Dull tried to estimate Ilopango’s effects on the local Maya, but he didn’t make further headway until 2008, when two major studies grabbed Dull’s attention. In one, geologists published new evidence that the historical “dust veil” of 536 was caused by a volcano. In the other, researchers announced that the Tierra Blanca Joven extended into marine sediments off the coast of El Salvador. The Tierra Blanca Joven eruption was even bigger than Dull and others thought.

Because the trees were so well preserved, Dull and his team could figure out how old they were when the Ilopango eruption killed them. These new data—a hundred new radiocarbon dates—point to the trees dying in the first half of the 6th century, most likely in the 530s to 540s.

Dull’s team also revised their estimate of Ilopango’s size, taking into account the thickness and spread of Tierra Blanca Joven deposits. They say that Ilopango may have even dwarfed the 1815 Tambora eruption, a huge volcanic event that ushered in “a year without a summer” because of the global cooling it caused. Ilopango likely launched up to a million tons of sulfur miles into the sky, high enough for stratospheric winds to spread the aerosols worldwide and trigger global cooling.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/08/colossal-volcano-behind-mystery-global-cooling-found/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=Science_20190828&rid=F2BB0F2A8054EA24A2EF725FAD8B79C3

* Wasn't Plato witness to the destruction of Athens during the Peloponnesion War? Hadn't Athens just been defeated by the Spartans for good? 
Domino, your efforts are appreciated it's a fascinating idea, thank you for contributing. I hope you keep it going I'd love to know the deal with Atlantis.


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Sep 2019 at 14:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 09:53
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

 
I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. 

9,000 years before his lifetime.
Plato said Atlantis existed about 9,000 years before his own time, and that its story had been passed down by poets, priests, and others. But Plato's writings about Atlantis are the only known records of its existence.


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Sep 2019 at 14:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allegro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 15:20
If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 20:34
Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 04:24
It has ruled over the imagination, ever since it sunk beneath the waves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2019 at 18:53
Originally posted by Allegro Allegro wrote:

If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.


Atlantis' Distance (was far not close) according to the source text(s) and ancient and modern views of the Account:

- Atlantis was "at a distant point in the Atlantic" (Plato).

- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)

- Atlanteans were "invaders" (Tim 25d.)
(In the bible the Kittim were also "westerners" and "invaders". Compare modern alien space invaders.)

- "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" (Crit 121).

- Atlantis was "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio Sic 3:56).

- "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

- 50 stades (500 miles) (Plutarch)

- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic".

- "5 days sail west of Britain". (Compare modern Atlantic crossing records.)

- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).

- Some scholars say that the Atlantis Account implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" ("Atlantic" or "world ocean") not in the inner sea indentation ("Mediterranean") (Plato 'Timaeus', Dio Sic, Aelian, Timagenes, Flem-Ath, Spanuth, compare geopolitics)?

- They invaded "upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) & Libya (nw Africa)" or "from next Libya"; "the whole of the land which is within the straits",
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars";
("against the whole of Europe & Asia".)

- "Thoth was born in a  distant country to the west which was  across a body of water."

(- Tarshish's name is associated with "a sea 2000 parasangs wide".)

- "Atlanteans were oustanding sailors (had 1200 ships)" (Spanuth's impression of Critias 117, 119).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 12:48
There's no lack of earthquakes or natural disasters ever but the dating of Tiahuanaco is bit of a problem. 

When do we say Plato's account was written?

Other cultures have this development in literature, the flood stories are in the earliest texts. Floods are terrifying, a captivating story telling device because it is the truth of life on earth.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 11:02
Solon, an ancestor of Critias, reportedly receives the story from the Egyptians.  I would guess, around 585 BC.  The story was told to Critias' namesake, and then to Critias.  As far as the transmission of the story, it is _just_ barely feasible.  There are two possible dates you may be asking about, when the dramatic date is, and when was it written.  I think it was written after the sinking of Helice.  Which sank in a earthquake and tsunami, and was a navigational hazard after that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 15:19
Helice the capital of the Ionians, along with mountains and a large swath of the Corinthian coast just slid into the sea 373 BC. No earthquake or fire according to one account, the supports of the the land shelf just collapsed. This is during the Peloponnese Wars when Sparta was dominating before the Doric invasion. 
In 1861 an 8 mile crack along a mountain in Helice slipped into the water. Taking the plain and trees into the sea. Rocks, trees and solid ground are visible just above the water. The accounts of Pausanius and observers in 1861 are similar in the description of coast land dropping into the sea. However the accounts after Eratosthenes of Helice starting with Pausanius, do include fire & brimstone/earthquakes.

Eratosthenes has an early account of local people at Helice who saw the markets sink and later the landmass prevented access to the sea. Fisherman couldn't take their boats out over the jagged fold of land. 

Also, fair enough that dates can be mistranslated, dropping a zero off the 9,000 before Plato lived is agreed.
Atlantis/Helice paraphrased pp242

Imagining Atlantis

By Richard Ellis


Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Sep 2019 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 02:32
Pausanias
Eratosthenes (Er-a-tos-the-nes)

Helice (or Helike) (He-li-ke) is an Achaean polis. Sybaris in Magna Graecia was founded from there.  The ocean being impassable in the Atlantis account, sounds like the impassability of the Helicean shores.  Although the gates of Heracles were in another way impassable, because it was Carthaginian waters and the Carthaginians would keep the Greeks out.

Plato died in 348.  The Timaeus and the Critias fragment are the last thing he wrote, besides the Laws.
so the guesstimation is that he wrote it c. 358.  
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