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Atlantis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 14:32
The only place we learn of the story of Atlantis, is Plato's telling, in the Timaeus and the Critias.  Therefore, Domino, I think you should be rather leary of dismissing parts of Plato's story.  The fantasy/science fiction author Sprague DeCamp wrote a book called Lost Continents in which he
dealt with Atlantis, Mu, and Lemuria.  Regarding Atlantis, he said that if you follow the descriptions,
you will find nothing there, and if you don't follow the descriptions, then you are not talking about Atlantis.  One thing DeCamp does is he lists all the mentions of Atlantis from Plato into the Middle Ages, they all, however, are derived from Plato.  There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.  I wonder how the Athenians (or Atlantians) could have gotten back and forth across the Atlantic.  It is one thing to putter around the Mediterranean, it is another to outfit ships for the full male population of Athens and go across the Ocean to wage war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 22:04
Quote I’m suggesting that the world has not changed very much in the last 11,000 to 12,000 years.
The world has changed considerably since then. I live in a town surrounded by typical English countryside. 12,000 years ago there was ice up to a mile thick burying the area. Just south of my home was arctic tundra and rocky wilderlands barely inhabited. The North Sea did not exist - it was dry land, now called Doggerland by researchers.
 
The ice retreated quickly as the global warming of that age was incredibly sudden. Forests soon emerged, later cleared by the increasing interference by human populations. I would point out that the inundation of Doggerland was a more gradual process and the inhabitants were mostly paleolithic migrant tribes rather than sophisticated Atlanteans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 00:19
Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.

Franciscosan,


I can show you the physical terrain features that Plato described and present that as evidence in a logical sequence. However, I cannot argue with you about it because you are denying the evidence. When I show you the small Island of Atlantis and match it to Plato’s description, I think that is not only a conformation in literature, but is also a conformation in geography. What world it take to convince you that Plato’s description of the Plain of Atlantis matches the Florida Plain?




Edited by Domino - 17 Aug 2019 at 09:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:13
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 11:51
So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 13:38
Originally posted by Domino Domino wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?

Yes.
Crete Delos and Thera aka Santorini have been called the new Atlantis. It was the remnant of a great trading partner, Minoans perhaps.

The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.



Edited by Vanuatu - 17 Aug 2019 at 13:39
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 21:04

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility. But pyramid building (and the native Americans of the mid northern continent came around to that sort of monumentalist architecture independently too albeit very briefly) has more to do with human psychology than any supposed common knowledge or culture. It is worth pointing out that old and new world socieities had little in common. Also, since the heavens are available on both sides of the Atlantic to ogle at, observation and record keeping by more sophisticated civilisations should be expected.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 01:57
Yea, a collective unconscious the Operating System. The Legacy memory. 
The idea of The Warning in form of flooding or any water destruction may be reasonably linked to man's misbehavior. There is always an element of greed before the disaster. Jordan Petersen said the version we read today is condensed so every detail has meaning. 
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 05:31
 Vanuatu, about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 11:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.

Franciscosan, 

As I said earlier in this discussion, people make mistakes in translation and interpretation. That is what happened in Plato’s description of the small island of Atlantis. People made mistakes in both reading and interpretation. Yes, Plato did say that there were three circular moats around the first castle, but he also said that they bridged over those waterways and made a road. Then, they cut three canal through the wise to create the island. This triangular Island of Atlantis had a diameter of .5 miles. Also, you have to realize that Plato did not have a map to reverence.  The castle was on a hill that Plato translated as being a mountain that was not very high. Later, he called it a hill. The hill is still there. I believe that if you read Plato’s story again, you will find that the canals were straight.

Plato describing the moats:

“and breaking the ground, enclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water,”

Plato describing construction in the area:

“First of all, they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.”

Plato later in the story:

“And beginning from the sea, they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbor, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.”


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39
Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Yes, people do make mistakes in translation and interpretation.  I hope you have studied Greek in order to try to mitigate the mistakes you may make in translation and interpretation.  I hope that you have read the Timaeus and tried to figure out the context in which such tale(s) are presented.

I don't get what this "wise" is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 01:16
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility.  

Agree, so the idea of weather/ geological changes like a "La Nina" or earth quake/tsunami- could have created limited opportunity for someone setting sail near the Azores to wander close to South America. 
Were it not for Trade Winds Thor would have been up doldrums's creek without a hammer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 06:53
Franciscosan, 

Benjamin Jowett used the term, wise, in his translation to describe the Plateau like land formation that held the royal palace. When they dug the canals, they divided the wise into two islands and one other land zone. This resulted in the triangular island being surrounded by two zones of land and three zones of water. This caused confusion in Plato’s story because it sounds the same as a castle surrounded by three  moats.

Plato:

“The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise: In the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold;”

Check out the divided wise using the map Image: https://goo.gl/maps/ixjnFPA9VthNmEUi6


Since the story has been translated by different translators, you will find that different terms are used in different ways.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:02
Well it seems to me that modern scanning methods could easily find Plato's Atlantean canals without difficulty. Funnily enough, nothing of the sort has been found, Florida or elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:07
Quote about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. Nor does the website establish definitive detail about a date for an asteroid/comet bombardment, especially sine the site does mention that erosion factors push the date back to 140,000 years.
 
The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis was soundly rejected by the scientific community (Pinter, et al. 2011)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Franciscosan,

Yes, they could cross the Atlantic. According to Plato, the country of Atlantis alone had 1,200 ships. The other nine countries had their own military forces. I believe the ships were kept in a harbor found on Davis Island. Follow the link to see the Atlantis harbour.

https://goo.gl/maps/8bUTN6oczb7vmHtGA


Also, Plato tells us how community leaders in Atlantis supplied men for the military service.


Plato:

“The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of war chariots, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots. Also two horses and riders for them, a pair of chariot-horses without a seat accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield. Also a charioteer, who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; and, he was bound to furnish two heavily armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city—the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.”

The military force of Atlantis that attempted to rule the world consisted of the combined forces of the ten counties that made up to Kingdom of Atlantis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 04:49
I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Watch the 2 or 3 minute video on youtube on the trireme Olympias (in the modern Greek Navy).  Do you believe that one of those (or 1200 of those) could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or, rather, do you believe that a fleet of those could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or maybe you believe that the Atlantians had super advanced vessels, do you believe that the Athenians also had super advanced, "mystical" vessels?  

I don't necessarily expect an answer, I just would like you to ask yourself those things.

The translation of the _Timaeus_and _Critias_ that I use is the Desmond Lee translation from Penguin Classics, in it he has a _circular_ map of the city according to the text.  That is why I assume the city and the citadel are on a circular plan.  Jowett was a Victorian, and his translation is a Victorian translation, he wasn't wrong for his time but is a little dated and stilted.  The main virtue of the Jowett translations these days, is that the copyright has lapsed, and so anyone can use them or publish them.  Our understanding of Greek has changed (developed 'further') and English usage has drifted, so that usages (wise) that were once familiar, sound odd these days.  But, from what I understand Jowett is good, overall, it is just that there other translations that are (maybe only incrementally) better.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Aug 2019 at 04:50
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