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Antikythera text examined

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    Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 21:26
Some of the mystery of The Antikythera  mechanism is removed. The text on the box has been examined with 3-D imaging and the zodiac is visible. The hand crank suggests that sailors could set their course by aligning themselves with the stars and the device.


More than 2,000 years before the Great American Solar Eclipse, which will darken the skies over the U.S. on Aug. 21, astronomers in ancient Greece developed their own "supercomputer" to predict eclipses just like this one.

The ancient gearbox, called the Antikythera mechanism, was used to identify astronomical events that could anchor their calendar. [See Photos of the Ancient Antikythera Shipwreck and Treasure]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 00:14
The Antikythera device is an example of a particular ancient Greek technological invention, and it is the only example.  Without its discovery in the ocean, we would not know such things existed in antiquity.  There is also no evidence of such things in literature.  Although this kind of computer is obviously an extension of ancient astronomy.

It is interesting to think of what we would miss, if we didn't know about this example.  What else are we missing in our knowledge of antiquity, or any other time period for that matter?  There are blindspots in our knowledge, and for many of these, we are even blind that we have blindspots.

Another example of this is the Derveni Papyrus, the oldest book ever found in Europe and an unique example of a form of ancient literature, not known from any other sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 01:18
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Some of the mystery of The Antikythera  mechanism is removed. The text on the box has been examined with 3-D imaging and the zodiac is visible. The hand crank suggests that sailors could set their course by aligning themselves with the stars and the device.


More than 2,000 years before the Great American Solar Eclipse, which will darken the skies over the U.S. on Aug. 21, astronomers in ancient Greece developed their own "supercomputer" to predict eclipses just like this one.

The ancient gearbox, called the Antikythera mechanism, was used to identify astronomical events that could anchor their calendar. [See Photos of the Ancient Antikythera Shipwreck and Treasure]


So the mechanism has been identified, but, it still remains an enigma with respect to who and how it was invented at the time.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 01:38
The Antikythera device can be dated relatively (not absolutely) by the shipwreck and its other contents.  Also, it presupposes a certain level of scientific knowledge, my guess (from what I seem to recall looking at it previously) is that it is 3rd or 2nd century BC. (300-100 BC).  But my point is that there are ways of coming up with a window of time when it must be in use, until it was lost at sea.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 03:40
http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/faq/general-questions/who-made-it

Some details here about Hipparchos (c.190 BC – c.120 BC) 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 15:40
Doing serious exploration where the Antikythera device was found. Link has a list of artifacts

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/mysterious-bronze-disc-found-2000-year-old-antikythera-shipwreck-resembles-021643

They Also Found Human Remains

Last year, human remains were found at the site. Regarding DNA analysis of the remains, marine archaeologist Brendan Foley with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Insitution  said in a press release: “Archaeologists study the human past through the objects our ancestors created. … With the Antikythera shipwreck, we can now connect directly with this person who sailed and died aboard the Antikythera ship.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 01:00
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Doing serious exploration where the Antikythera device was found. Link has a list of artifacts

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/mysterious-bronze-disc-found-2000-year-old-antikythera-shipwreck-resembles-021643

They Also Found Human Remains

Last year, human remains were found at the site. Regarding DNA analysis of the remains, marine archaeologist Brendan Foley with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Insitution  said in a press release: “Archaeologists study the human past through the objects our ancestors created. … With the Antikythera shipwreck, we can now connect directly with this person who sailed and died aboard the Antikythera ship.”


Yes, I read the Ancient Origins web site every day, and I've read the article you refer to.

This, and other ancient, complex inventions still haven't been explained by science-by that I mean how ancient humans could design and build such things in those days.

I find some of the inventions a bit unsettling, as, IMHO, they should not have been able to be built at the time sciience tells us they were.


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 04:25
Astronomy/ astrology, those disks look like they were used like cartridges, maybe instructional. 

Theories are tricky, not much from ancient sources. Cicero? Was it a salesman's sample?

The gears would have accounted for the elliptical orbit of earth around the sun.

http://academic.oup.com/astrogeo/article/41/6/6.10/225422/The-Antikythera-Mechanism-Still-a-mystery-of-Greek

The parapegma under the dial on the front of the Mechanism shows a traditional Greek calendar similar to that described by Geminus (see below). The last nine lines are preserved. Translations are from de Solla Price 1975, items in {brackets} are surmised:

{Κ} Evening

{Λ} The Hya{des se}t in the evening

Μ Taurus {be}gins to rise

{Ν} Vega rises in the evening

Θ {The Pleiad}es rise in the morning

Ο The Hyades rise in the morning

Π Gemini begins to rise

Ρ Altair rises in the evening

£ Arcturus sets in the {morning}

This type of calendar is based upon the heliacal risings and settings of bright stars and zodiacal constellations – i.e. what is just beginning to appear at sunset, or is being lost in the dawn sky. They would also include seasonal indications such as weather and the solstices.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 06:19
Yes, but how, given the level of knowledge of that time, and the technology, was it ever invented?

And by whom?
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 14:10
Remains a fascinating story...good post good links...my money is on some unknown Greek scientific based mind influenced by the Persians and Egyptians. The great Arab minds were yet to come....but one thing is for sure it wasn't some red kneck from South Georgia USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 15:51
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, but how, given the level of knowledge of that time, and the technology, was it ever invented?

And by whom?

People have suggested Hipparchos
 

http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/faq/general-questions/who-made-it

Some details here about Hipparchos (c.190 BC – c.120 BC) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 18:37
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, but how, given the level of knowledge of that time, and the technology, was it ever invented?

And by whom?

People have suggested Hipparchos
 

http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/faq/general-questions/who-made-it<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"></span><div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
<div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Some details here about Hipparchos (c.190 BC – c.120 BC) 
<div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">


Babs are always a possibility if one just considers it...ntl if its Hipparchus I missed it in his references provided by Strabo and or Pliny iirc.otoh as noted anythings possible....ill stay with an unknown Greek with Persian and or possible influenced by the Babylonians;Egyptians etc. I dunno why really I just like the Persians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 01:12
Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, but how, given the level of knowledge of that time, and the technology, was it ever invented?

And by whom?

People have suggested Hipparchos
 

http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/faq/general-questions/who-made-it<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"></span><div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
<div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Some details here about Hipparchos (c.190 BC – c.120 BC) 
<div style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">


Babs are always a possibility if one just considers it...ntl if its Hipparchus I missed it in his references provided by Strabo and or Pliny iirc.otoh as noted anythings possible....ill stay with an unknown Greek with Persian and or possible influenced by the Babylonians;Egyptians etc. I dunno why really I just like the Persians.

Thumbs Up okay nuthin' wrong with that! 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 02:38
The Chaldeans (Babylonians) were probably the most astronomically/astrologically sophisticated until the Greeks came along and learned much from them.  Mechanics was a branch of (practical) mathematics for the Greeks.  Unless, there is anything like a smoking gun, say "xyz" invented it, I think the creator should be counted as anonymous.  The best one might be able to do is to say that the mechanism "presupposes" a certain level of astronomical complexity that is shown in Hipparchus or whomever else.  My guess is that there is nothing unique about the astronomical complexity, nor would there be anything in the metallurgy and the gears, it is putting the whole thing together that is interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 08:07
I like your ''XYZ" praenomen approach. Sadly, as you note, unless something appears its probably the best we will ever get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 08:30
Or We could in the spirit of history and science award him the honorific and refer to him hence and in future as 'Doctor Antikythera' Phd.



Edited by Dark Warrior - 08 Oct 2017 at 08:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 17:31
"Doctor Antikythera,"  sounds like a supervillian.... 

LOL


Edited by franciscosan - 10 Oct 2017 at 01:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 01:57
Remember that there is no patent process in antiquity.  No official recording of an invention, and promotion of the individual's commercial rights as the first one to make such a thing.  Not much demand for such a thing, and for that matter, it would be something that only an astronomer/astrologer (not much difference) would want, could use, and if you have an astronomer, why would you need it?  It would be a shortcut for a professional, but if it caught on, you just might not need professionals!

In Greek, it is a mechane (mech-an-e), a trick or ruse.  For us, it is really neat, but I wonder if the ancients would feel the same way.  Think of it this way, would you prefer a live performance of a musician?  Or would you prefer a recording of the same performance, even if it was memorex?
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