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ANTIFA the new Fascists

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 20:44
The sale of army surplus has been going on for awhile, there were a few things that Obama restricted, that Trump "un"-restricted.  Things like bayonets or grenade launchers that aren't really of interest to most police departments anyways.  But the issue of the militarization of police departments has been going on for awhile.  One group against it, but for gun ownership in general is libertarians.  The military mindset and the police mindset are not the same thing, and should not be the same.

In some ways, it is reassuring that they are carrying ARs, nobody in their right mind commits crimes with ARs, too expensive.  Wouldn't want to get them confiscated.  They bringing out and carrying around their toys to show off.  They're posturing and strutting like a peacock.  I mean, how many times do you actually hear about an assault rifle used in a crime, very rarely.

"The likelihood of extreme violence is obvious," on what kind of scale?  To be likely I would say that 1/2 of all such events would have to erupt in violence, in order to say that it is obvious.  Most likely, the White Supremacists and the Black separatists get into an argument, until they finally agree that it is all the Jews fault.  That is sad, but there is some truth to it.  But seriously, I don't know if these black Texans and white Texans are racist, or whether they're just being Texan, boisterous, slightly xenophobic, and obnoxious.  But note that there is a saying in rural America, "an armed society is a polite society."  There is some truth to that too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 04:46
toyomotor-I agree that the confrontations are serious. This is not the way we usually see racism played out, it's not subtle anymore. 

Quote The fact is though, members of all three groups were openly and heavily armed with military grade weapons. The likelihood of extreme violence was obvious, especially when one African American group maintained that they were armed and prepared to kill police whom they viewed as the enemy.
That is why the police need serious armored fire power. 
This year in Chicago:
Shot & Killed 459
Shot & wounded 2215
Total Shot 2647
Total Homicides 496
Look at the fire power street gangs are toting:

Now these ANTIFA nuts are setting fires assaulting individuals and destroying property. Crime is going to turn the US into a police state.


Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Sep 2017 at 04:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 05:02
franciscosan
Quote I mean, how many times do you actually hear about an assault rifle used in a crime, very rarely.

Too many times in the last ten years. Looks like a trend and leads to a vision of exponential expansion in this category.  These events stay with you eveytime a psycho shows up in Aurora, or Newtown or Orlando or jihadi maniacs in San Bernadino, it feels like a tipping point to me.



Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Sep 2017 at 06:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 08:03
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

franciscosan
Quote I mean, how many times do you actually hear about an assault rifle used in a crime, very rarely.

Too many times in the last ten years. Looks like a trend and leads to a vision of exponential expansion in this category.  These events stay with you eveytime a psycho shows up in Aurora, or Newtown or Orlando or jihadi maniacs in San Bernadino, it feels like a tipping point to me.


Quote  I mean, how many times do you actually hear about an assault rifle used in a crime, very rarely.

Do you think Franky reads newspapers or watches TV news?

"Gunman armed with Assualt Rifle and pistols kills....." etc. School killings, theatre killings and so on.

True, long barrels are not the weapon of choice for armed robbers, normally, but they have been used in the past.

It terrifies me to see civilians armed with Assault Rifles and submachine guns openly carrying them in public, loaded and ready to kill. 

While police weaponry is being updated, you can bet your sweet ass that the crooks will have the same or better.

But do ordinary US civilians want to see police patrolling their streets in Armoured military vehicles and carrying assault rifles?

IMHO, the Second Amendment to the US Constitution has been abused for decades as a right to bear arms in public, but I realise that gun crazy Americans will fight for their right to carry firearms.

The horse has bolted!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 16:38
Quote It terrifies me to see civilians armed with Assault Rifles and submachine guns openly carrying them in public, loaded and ready to kill.
I agree allowing this display of firepower in public , it's a bit of a fection. Fection, youth speak for when something has affected you to the point of disturbance, disruption. If it were happening on my street, I'd be expecting the police to show up and shut that down immediately.
Quote While police weaponry is being updated, you can bet your sweet ass that the crooks will have the same or better.

But do ordinary US civilians want to see police patrolling their streets in Armoured military vehicles and carrying assault rifles?
Keeping a gun is for protecting your self, family and neighbors in the event the police can't for whatever reason. There's only bad things to follow that kind of posturing with weapons.

Quote IMHO, the Second Amendment to the US Constitution has been abused for decades as a right to bear arms in public, but I realise that gun crazy Americans will fight for their right to carry firearms.
Sometimes we hear after a mass shooting, 'one good guy with a gun could have made a difference.' I can't argue with that logic. Citizens get to have guns bc of the Constitution as you said, but we are swinging towards dystopian future. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 02:42

Quote I agree allowing this display of firepower in public , it's a bit of a fection. Fection, youth speak for when something has affected you to the point of disturbance, disruption. If it were happening on my street, I'd be expecting the police to show up and shut that down immediately.

If they were young hot heads,  that would be one thing, but these were mature(???) adults. Black Lives Matter, yes they do! White Lives Matter, also true. Klu Klux Klan, now come on, a step back to the bad old days.

I can understand the rationale behing the Black Lives Matter campaign, there has been a disproportionate number of African/American men killed by police under circumstances which were, to say the least, questionable. IMO, with my background, I'd go so far as to suggest that quite a few police officers should have been charged with murder. Yes, I know danger lurks around every corner in the USA for police, but to shoot an unarmed man in the back as he's running away is just too blatant.

I don't know if, or how many white people have been killed under similar circumstances, but the recent murder of an Australian woman, unarmed, who had summoned the police, only to be gunned down by one of them, goes beyond the pale.

As for your comment you would expect that the police should or could have acted, they did. The White Lives Matter Rally was conducted under a permit, and was lawful (???), guns'n'all. When the three different groups started getting violent, the police quite properly escorted the WLM people to safety.

It's quite apparent that there's racial tension in some parts of the US, and ready access to military grade weapons makes a flare-up a certainty.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 04:29
It won't matter to me if it's a young hot head or an old KKK grand gekko who shoots me. I just don't want to get shot.

Why mitigate violent acts using the personal history of the offender?

Does Australian law allow for mitigating violent crime with a difficult life story? 


Edited by Vanuatu - 15 Sep 2017 at 04:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 07:22
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

It won't matter to me if it's a young hot head or an old KKK grand gekko who shoots me. I just don't want to get shot.

Why mitigate violent acts using the personal history of the offender?

Does Australian law allow for mitigating violent crime with a difficult life story? 

Likewise, nor do I.

It's done a daily basis in Australia.

Unfortunately, every bum that comes before the courts charged with serious crimes and offences has a tale of woe-unsettled childhood, bad parents, alcohol and/or drug use, and the judges take it all into account and award weak sentences.

Offenders first, victims second.




Edited by toyomotor - 16 Sep 2017 at 01:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 00:51
toyomotor, I hope that Australia uses a jury system and I hope that if there is a police officer charged with murder or whatnot that you will hear them out before convicting them.  You may even learn that there are extenuating circumstances in most of the cases involving excessive force, and that the devil is in the details.

I really don't understand people challenging the police, I am a middle aged white guy, and my attitude is that you really should cooperate as much as possible, without admitting anything.  I guess I have a concern about self-preservation, and don't understand why anyone would put up a fight with someone with a handgun, pepperspray, maybe a baton, maybe a taser,  I guess it may be a macho thing, arguing with the police, trying to run away, even going for the officer's gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 01:15
Franciscosan

Quote toyomotor, I hope that Australia uses a jury system and I hope that if there is a police officer charged with murder or whatnot that you will hear them out before convicting them. 

Funny you should mention that. Only on Thursday a Victorian police officer was acquitted of murder after shooting a man who came at him with a knife.

Yes, we do have a jury system much like yours, and juries can get it wrong here as they do in the US.

The case of the Australian woman murdered by a US police officer, was just that from what I've read, murder, notwithstanding that his boss has now come out to support him. How do you condone the murder of an unarmed female complainant ? And she didn't challenge the police in any way!!! Why would she, it was she who called them? 

Having been a police officer for over 30 years, I can tell you that those who challenge the police fall into many categories, including machismo in front of their mates, arrogance, pure hatred of police-and then you get into the effects of drugs and alcohol.

Quote You may even learn that there are extenuating circumstances in most of the cases involving excessive force, and that the devil is in the details.

Yes, like running away, and the police officer felt threatened. Like the old "I thought he was going for a gun", and later found to be unarmed.

It seems to me that among US Law Enforcement there is a shoot first, ask questions later culture.

It cannot be condoned!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 18:08
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Franciscosan

Quote toyomotor, I hope that Australia uses a jury system and I hope that if there is a police officer charged with murder or whatnot that you will hear them out before convicting them. 

Funny you should mention that. Only on Thursday a Victorian police officer was acquitted of murder after shooting a man who came at him with a knife.

Yes, we do have a jury system much like yours, and juries can get it wrong here as they do in the US.

The case of the Australian woman murdered by a US police officer, was just that from what I've read, murder, notwithstanding that his boss has now come out to support him. How do you condone the murder of an unarmed female complainant ? And she didn't challenge the police in any way!!! Why would she, it was she who called them? 

Having been a police officer for over 30 years, I can tell you that those who challenge the police fall into many categories, including machismo in front of their mates, arrogance, pure hatred of police-and then you get into the effects of drugs and alcohol.

Quote You may even learn that there are extenuating circumstances in most of the cases involving excessive force, and that the devil is in the details.

Yes, like running away, and the police officer felt threatened. Like the old "I thought he was going for a gun", and later found to be unarmed.

It seems to me that among US Law Enforcement there is a shoot first, ask questions later culture.

It cannot be condoned!!

toyomotor- this horrible incident with Justine Damond is pure insanity. Wonder if you knew this about the officer who killed her;

Noor was put on an accelerated police cadet program that required only seven months of training, a nontraditional route that aims to help those who have a college degree enter law enforcement. Some believe that program could leave officers ill prepared to handle real-world police scenarios.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 18:11
No excuse for the shooting is evident and Noor isn't talking.

In the case of the latest riots in St Louis, it's not the same story at all. Justine Damond did not sell heroine or try to run down a police officer with her car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 22:36
I don't know what happened with Justine Damond, and I would have to hear about the trial, in order to make a somewhat informed judgment.  Of course, Noor isn't talking.  My guess is that he doesn't have what it takes, and never did.

Assault weapons are used in a small percentage of crimes, when they are used, they can be quite devastating.  They do seem to be a choice for the lone wolf rampages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2017 at 01:29
Vanuatu said
Quote Noor was put on an accelerated police cadet program that required only seven months of training, a nontraditional route that aims to help those who have a college degree enter law enforcement. Some believe that program could leave officers ill prepared to handle real-world police scenarios.

One of the most basic, and perhaps difficult part of learning to be a police officer is dealing with people in different situations, such as extreme stress, drunkeness, mental illness and so on.

As a side note, I sometimes watch American "reality" programs like Cops. Granted, the clips only show the scenes of some activity, but what frightens me is the high speed chases for very minor offences, and the violence with which people are treated by police. I understand some of the tactics are based on the violence and gun culture the US police have to deal with, but even on the TV programs, many people are treated with utter disrespect and very rough handling.

The way the police treat people leads the public to believe that probably all police act in the same manner and don't trust the police, which is wrong. But it's not helped when police like this Noor shoot innocent people and are then supported by the Police Chief. Another court decision over the shooting of a black man by a white police officer in Louisiana (?)has sparked mass protests in that city.

It's very easy for an outsider to understand the feelings of some community groups which see the police as the enemy, in fact, see the State as the enemy.

Who could ever forget Kent State University massacre?

[quote]The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[3][4][5] were the shootings of unarmed college students protesting the Vietnam War at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio, by members of the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Twenty-nine guardsmen fired approximately 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[6][7] (from Wiki)[/quote]

And there similar incidents elsewhere.

ANTIFA may be the New Fascists, but there are many other allied and opposing, violent groups
in the USA.

As I said previously, the horse has bolted.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2017 at 21:43
I think you mean St. Louis, not Louisiana?  If you are not familiar with the case enough to get that basic fact straight, then I wonder how straight you are getting other details.  When people say that a "white police officer shot a black man," that implies that the officer shot the man because he was black.  It totally ignores the fact that the black kid reached into the window of the cruiser and tried to take the officer's firearm.  It also ignores that the kid had just shoplifted and blew off a convenience store clerk who had yelled at him, definitely not a serious offense, but the incident with the officer was not the first bad decision that the kid made that day.  People say, "he shouldn't have died," but then again, he shouldn't have grappled with the police officer over the officer's gun.
But, it is important to convict in the court of public opinion, the officer was not convicted by a jury, and I seem to remember that Eric Holder, Barack Obama's (black) Attorney General did not get him on any civil rights charges (which is kind of like double jeopardy).  But you know, that does not sell newspapers, better to have a simplistic explanation with a clear villain and victim, than to admit that a situation may be more complex than a soundbite on the nightly news.  It is a tragedy, and it is tragedy anyway around, if the kid had lived through his troubled teen years, well, he never would have been a doctor, but he probably would have settled down.  Someone must have stuck the stupid idea in the kid's head, so that he never got that far.  The officer has done what I consider a respectable thing to do, he quit the force, he has to figure out how to live with what he did, even though I think the kid didn't really give him much of choice.

BTW, the irony is that this happened in Ferguson, because Ferguson was not racist.  When blacks started to move into the neighborhood, the 'white' residents decided to stay, instead of fleeing to the suburbs.  That is why the town council and the police department are predominantly white, they are long term residents who instead of fleeing, decided to stay and live their lives there.  Now they did not do anything special to make the newcomers welcome, but they didn't do anything special to make them not feel welcome either.  Maybe they should have celebrated the newcomers "blackness" or something like that, but that in itself is another kind of racism. 

Kent State was apparently 47 years ago, when you say "there [are] similar incidents elsewhere."  Are you thinking 47 years ago, or more recently??


Edited by franciscosan - 18 Sep 2017 at 21:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2017 at 01:02
Franciscosan

Quote I think you mean St. Louis, not Louisiana?  If you are not familiar with the case enough to get that basic fact straight, then I wonder how straight you are getting other details.

Gee, so I made a mistake with the place name. I should go out and slash my wrists!!Angry

And it doesn't alter the fact that a lot of young black men have died at the hands of police, some under, IMO, unwarranted circumstances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2017 at 03:05
Quote And it doesn't alter the fact that a lot of young black men have died at the hands of police, some under, IMO, unwarranted circumstances.

Yes and so have a lot of white people. I knew someone who was shot by the police for taking off after being pulled over. Just shot dead in his car. Justine Damond was white. 
St louis riots are about Anthony Lamar Smith who was shot by police. The anger is over comments recorded on the dash board cam.
http://nypost.com/2017/09/16/why-judge-acquitted-st-louis-cop-of-first-degree-murder/

  Smith drove at speeds of up to 87 miles per hour on wet roads, endangering other drivers and pedestrians. About 45 seconds before the chase ended, police dashcam video captured Stockley saying, “going to kill this (expletive), don’t you know it.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2017 at 09:51
Vanuatu

Quote  Smith drove at speeds of up to 87 miles per hour on wet roads, endangering other drivers and pedestrians. About 45 seconds before the chase ended, police dashcam video captured Stockley saying, “going to kill this (expletive), don’t you know it.”

In Australia, police have taken the attitude that high speed chases place the public in danger and so desist, except for the most serious of crimes.

Of course, the crims know this, and hot foot it as soon as police are sighted. Some are caught, some are not, at the time anyway.

Police are put in the position of making split second decisions which could cost them their lives, or the lives and welfare of others. I fully accept that in the US communities, with the ready available of firearms, it's even more essential that police get it right, and mostly they do, but it does seem that there is a racial issue at play.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2017 at 10:26
I found the below quote on
         http://news.mrpt.org/latest/antifa-used-social-media-to-track-down-and-ko-a-neonazi


Quote A man in Seattle was punched in the face after he was spotted wearing a red swastika armband on a city bus. A network of anti-fascists, aka Antifa, used social media to share the man’s picture and location, which may have led to the confrontation downtown....

They can't be all that bad after all.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 14:58
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I found the below quote on
         http://news.mrpt.org/latest/antifa-used-social-media-to-track-down-and-ko-a-neonazi


Quote A man in Seattle was punched in the face after he was spotted wearing a red swastika armband on a city bus. A network of anti-fascists, aka Antifa, used social media to share the man’s picture and location, which may have led to the confrontation downtown....

They can't be all that bad after all.Wink

Yes they can.
It's not a crime to call yourself a Nazi. 
It is a crime to walk up to someone and punch them in the face. The trouble is toyomotor , ANTIFA does not get to decide who in our society deserves punishment.

I'm a little surprised that you support this tracking and assaulting people. I see anti-white comments on social media, in music and even on T-shirts but I can't punch people in the face for it.

I wanted to show you this study on police violence and the kill rate among blacks, it was only last year and the professor who did the study is black & he was very surprised. Is it a noble lie to say police kill more black people than white people? Does it level things?:

By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Monday, July 11, 2016
A study by a Harvard professor released this month found no evidence of racial bias in police shootings even though officers were more likely to interact physically with non-whites than whites.

The paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research, which examined thousands of incidents at 10 large police departments in California, Florida and Texas, concluded that police were no more likely to shoot non-whites than whites after factoring in extenuating circumstances.

“On the most extreme use of force — officer-involved shootings — we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account,” said Harvard economics professor Roland G. Fryer Jr. in the abstract of the July 2016 paper.

Mr. Fryer, who is black, told The New York Times that the finding of no racial discrimination in police shootings was “the most surprising result of my career.”

At the same time, the study found blacks and Hispanics were more than 50 percent more likely to experience physical interactions with police, including touching, pushing, handcuffing, drawing a weapon, and using a baton or pepper spray.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 01:05
Vanuatu

Quote They can't be all that bad after all.Wink

That was meant tongue in cheek.

I agree, people don't have the right to asault someone because thet disagree with their views or clothing.

Yes, I understand that police are probably more likely to have interaction with Afro/Americans, Hispanics and so on. That the black/white death rate at the hands of police is not indicative of racial bias, according to one researcher, is of no comfort.

Only yesterday I read of a US police officer shooting and killing a man because the police officer said that the man wouldn't do as he was told. Justice??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 02:11
Depends on what he was doing, and what he was told.  If you had, say, Mike Tyson angry at you, coming at you, like I said depends on who, what and what he was told.

I wonder if someone used twitter and posted a picture so that someone could jump a 'whatever' could be classed as a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Planning to jump someone should not be acceptable, a quick, punch in the nose of someone who gets in your face, while not technically legal, is understandable as long as you understand that they might do the same.

In the 1980s there were some skinheads in Portland Oregon that kicked to death an Eretria Now member, skinheads became scarce in Portland due to retaliation, and if you were bald, you would often get a "skinheads for Gandhi" teeshirt to show that one wasn't affiliated with neo-nazis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 07:04
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Depends on what he was doing, and what he was told.  If you had, say, Mike Tyson angry at you, coming at you, like I said depends on who, what and what he was told.

I wonder if someone used twitter and posted a picture so that someone could jump a 'whatever' could be classed as a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Planning to jump someone should not be acceptable, a quick, punch in the nose of someone who gets in your face, while not technically legal, is understandable as long as you understand that they might do the same.

In the 1980s there were some skinheads in Portland Oregon that kicked to death an Eretria Now member, skinheads became scarce in Portland due to retaliation, and if you were bald, you would often get a "skinheads for Gandhi" teeshirt to show that one wasn't affiliated with neo-nazis.

Once again, you completely miss the point!
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 17:22
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Depends on what he was doing, and what he was told.  If you had, say, Mike Tyson angry at you, coming at you, like I said depends on who, what and what he was told.

I wonder if someone used twitter and posted a picture so that someone could jump a 'whatever' could be classed as a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Planning to jump someone should not be acceptable, a quick, punch in the nose of someone who gets in your face, while not technically legal, is understandable as long as you understand that they might do the same.

In the 1980s there were some skinheads in Portland Oregon that kicked to death an Eretria Now member, skinheads became scarce in Portland due to retaliation, and if you were bald, you would often get a "skinheads for Gandhi" teeshirt to show that one wasn't affiliated with neo-nazis.

Once again, you completely miss the point!

With all due respect for your informed views on police matters, I think you miss the point toyomotor.
If a cop tells me to - shut off the engine- keep your hands where I can see them- get out of the car- show me your ID and especially STOP! Then I'm going to cooperate even if I know I'mm busted.

I don't know how much Australian police have been demonized by the media and the public. 
Or whether any of your political leaders are calling for RESISTANCE (C. Maxine Waters and Keith Ellis Chair of the Dem Commitee[read up on this lunatic]) and supporting the groups like BLM, who chant "Pigs in a blanket fry 'em like bacon."
How would it affect your attitude towards your job? I don't think the two countries are comparable in that sense? Are they?

Despite the furor over Trump aide Steve Bannon’s alleged anti-Semitism, there’s been virtually no media attention paid to the man likely to become the next chair of the Democratic National Committee, Cong. Keith Ellison (D-MN).

The man poised to head the Democratic Party was a spokesman for the Nation of Islam well into his 30’s who publicly spewed anti-Semitism and later in life as a Congressional candidate knowingly accepted $50,000 in campaign contributions given and raised by Islamic radicals who openly supported Islamic terrorism and were leaders of front groups for Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.ats Must Scrutinize Keith Ellison’s Anti-Semitic Past And Ties To Radical Islam.


To be clear, Ellison has never genuinely repudiated his past anti-Semitism or his close association with the terror-tied Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) or its co-founder, Nihad Awad, who has publicly supported Islamic terrorism.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 01:52
Vanuatu wrote
Quote With all due respect for your informed views on police matters, I think you miss the point toyomotor.

No, I don't think so.

If a person refuses to show his hands, or turn off the motor of his vehicle, that, in itself is not justification for murder!

If the suspect is armed and refuses to drop the weapon, that's a different matter entirely.

Purely from what I've seen on reality TV programs, like Cops, it seems to me that many US police are far too agressive in handling the public. Maybe it's the real fear of being injured, I don't know.

Australian police are not vilified publicly. If one commits a crime and is convicted, they draw the criticism they deserve. Overall, Australian police are respected by the community, and of course we have very serious gun and knife laws.

We take a different approach to our communities, usually. Violent response such as with OC Spray, Tasers, or firearms, are part of the chain of escalation when talking hasn't worked, but talking to people, in the correct manner, is the nationwide approach.

Of course we have rude and ignorant individuals in the police forces, just like any other work place, but they are in the minority. We're a laid back society, whereas it seems to me, in the US, particularly in the city regions, there is an atmosphere of tension. If I'm correct in that assumption, it creates the actions and reactions seen on TV.


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 00:23
If it is heavy weight boxer Mike Tyson, his hands are lethal weapons, he has a record, went to prison for beating his girlfriend, and he is aggressive, bit off another boxer's ear, so the concept that he or someone like him is "unarmed." is a nice fantasy.

I don't know of what cases you are talking about toyomotor, I would tend to agree with you that if someone refuses to show hand, turn off motor, then it would not be a justified shooting.  But then again, with your hypothetical situation, in real life there would usually be more going on.  
How is that supposed to go down?  they don't show their hands and everybody freezes where they are?  What if they show their hands and have a weapon?  If you shoot them, and it turns out that they had a weapon, is that a justified shooting?  Even though you didn't "know" it at the time."

I don't think you ever have a "justified" "murder," justified homicide, yes, but if it is murder, it is not justified.  Murder is a legal distinction, although it get used (and confused) in pop culture.  Perhaps some shootings "should" be murder, or manslaughter or what not, but that is not how they go down in court.  I am not sure the notion of the masses and the press trying to change a verdict through their mass indignation is a good idea for jurisprudence, especially considering how misinformed they may be on the particulars of an incident, and worse, how they don't care how they are misinformed in their righteous indignation.  They often want the sentence first, and then, maybe, the trial.

I generally don't watch "reality" TV shows such as Cops, but I am sure that when they go out with a camera crew, they're worked up, and they are working hard to stay on top of things because they have civilians potentially getting in the way.  I don't think that such shows are representative of how police work is in the United States, I am sure that there are short moments of excitement accompanied by long periods of boredom.

But there is a conservative (libertarian) attitude that we should declare that we won the drug war, and go home.  Some states, such as Colorado, are doing that for marijuana, which means a trade off in problems.  But it would mean that the police would not be caught in an endless loop of an unwinnable situation, getting increasingly frustrated.  But I don't think there is any excuse for using crystal meth, (the hippies mantra was that "speed kills'), and pain killers are best reserved for pain.  I remember a story about a couple into cocaine, getting into a car wreck, he died, and she didn't, but pain killers just did not work anymore for her.  Drugs need to be regulated, but how their regulated and how their criminalized needs to be rethought.
If you work on releasing pressure on the drug front, that will have an effect on racial issues as well.  Although that should not be a reason to do so.


Edited by franciscosan - 24 Sep 2017 at 00:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 03:13
Franciscosan wrote
Quote But there is a conservative (libertarian) attitude that we should declare that we won the drug war, and go home.

A more truthful and realistic declaration would that the US has lost the war on drugs, and it remains unwinnable. Not that this is particularly relevant to the OP.

Nor is the quasi justification for police shootings that you seem to support.

In fact, your whole post, as it relates to the OP, is irrelevant.

Quote If you work on releasing pressure on the drug front, that will have an effect on racial issues as well.

Wishful thinking, but, again, not realistic, nor relevant to the OP. 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 00:14
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote With all due respect for your informed views on police matters, I think you miss the point toyomotor.

No, I don't think so.

If a person refuses to show his hands, or turn off the motor of his vehicle, that, in itself is not justification for murder!
I don't say that it is justification for murder. I'm going to demonstrate to the police that they are not in danger themselves and that I'm going to cooperate. It's not radical. Most people appreciate that he cops face unpredictable situations & are demonized even by political figures.

Quote
If the suspect is armed and refuses to drop the weapon, that's a different matter entirely.

Now you are catching on. Do you think I'm talking about girls scouts? They get killed in the crossfire in places like Chicago, along with toddlers in strollers.  

Quote Purely from what I've seen on reality TV programs, like Cops, it seems to me that many US police are far too agressive in handling the public. Maybe it's the real fear of being injured, I don't know.
I think they are scared of being killed. 

Quote Australian police are not vilified publicly. If one commits a crime and is convicted, they draw the criticism they deserve. Overall, Australian police are respected by the community, and of course we have very serious gun and knife laws.

We take a different approach to our communities, usually. Violent response such as with OC Spray, Tasers, or firearms, are part of the chain of escalation when talking hasn't worked, but talking to people, in the correct manner, is the nationwide approach.

Of course we have rude and ignorant individuals in the police forces, just like any other work place, but they are in the minority. We're a laid back society, whereas it seems to me, in the US, particularly in the city regions, there is an atmosphere of tension. If I'm correct in that assumption, it creates the actions and reactions seen on TV.



Take a look at rude & ignorant up close. Nancy Pelosi has championed the DACA leftovers. Look at how much respect they show her. LOL





Edited by Vanuatu - Yesterday at 01:18
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 01:29
toyomotor "Yes, I understand that police are probably more likely to have interaction with Afro/Americans, Hispanics and so on. That the black/white death rate at the hands of police is not indicative of racial bias, according to one researcher, is of no comfort."

So you can accept part of the study. The part that logically follows what you already believe. Fair enough. Most of us do think along those lines.

So, you may not be aware but there was a lot of backlash against this  professor. 

Where are the studies that counter his statistics? They don't exist because numbers don't lie. Admittedly they are just numbers. They don't describes all the intricacies of the last moments in a life lost, a terrifying event. It should at least give some pause to condemn the police as racist killers.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 03:06
I would suggest a book, if toyomotor doesn't think it is "irrelevant.":P

The Myths That Divide Us- How Lies Have Poisoned American Race Relations.
by John Perazzo World Studies Books, 1998

Although I think that there are a lot of minorities that are aware of the venom, and want to have little to do with it.  So I think that under a superficiality of resentment, there is a deeper reality of people wanting to get on with their life.  Note that that doesn't mean they won't take advantages when they find them, preferential treatment for minorities enrolling in college for example.  This is a lot of what the "fascists" are objecting to, which just because they're not popular, doesn't mean that they don't have a point.  The antifascists are elitists defending a system which is unfair in minor ways, but not unfair to them.  They are the cadre fighting the good fight, all fun and games, even when someone gets run over.  Race based scholarships and enrollment is racist, especially when rich blacks (or Hispanics) benefit, whereas poor whites (and Asians) who do not have any societal advantages don't get consideration.  Scholarships and enrollment should have a _needs_ based affirmative action.  But of course, there is no power and benefits to be hoarded that way for the democrats and the black congressional caucus to bestow upon their people.  And that is what really is happening, patronage.  Furthermore, when democrats loose an election, the black caucus rarely looses in black districts, so the black caucus gains in clout, and can appoint a Black Muslim, for a democratic chair.


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