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American Holocaust

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    Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:14

Interesting book.

 

David Stannard, 1992: American Holocaust

 

In this book Stannard discusses the impact of western civilisation and colonialism on the Americas. He discusses the collapses of Amerindian societies that was the result of violence, slavery, displacement and of the countless contagious diseases that the Europeans introduced. Here one can read details about the demographic collapses that many Amerindian societies went through.

 
Stannards numbers have been discussed, but even if some perhaps should be exaggerated it seems that the  percentages of the losses can be quite credible, especially since many other books and studies comes to similar conclusions. Stannard also quotes many references in his book.

 

Stannard tells about how the invasions took place and he gives many examples of violence and massacres. He discusses both the impact of the Spaniards and of other European nations (for example the British/English) but also USA and other later entities.

 

Also interesting is the discussions about the mindset of the Europeans that invaded the Americas (and their descendants in for example USA).

 

The role of Christian religion and its huge impact is also discussed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:17
So what are your personal thoughts and what do you think are the wider implications of the book's discourse?
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:21
Several of the facts and conclusions in the book seem to be in accordance with other works and studies that I read. The implications is partly historical, but also it opens ones eyes for, and give a background to, the still ongoing subjugation and displacement of Amerindian peoples, especially in Latin America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:25
You and your hippie friends are an Anti-Latin American biggot group.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You and your hippie friends are an Anti-Latin American biggot group.
 
Interesting that critizism of Spanish and Latin American opression of Amerindians is seen as a form of hippie view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:33
You are a hippie with New Age ideologies, aren't you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:37
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You are a hippie with New Age ideologies, aren't you?
 
So everyone that have different views of the world than you is a hippie?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:43
Of course. Particularly those that want to teach but that aren't interested in learning.

People like you that aren't interested in Guadaloupe, the racial mixing, the Latin American barroque, the Latin American literature and culture, the history of assimilation an integration of our lands, our fights for Independence and justice.

Yes, people like you that are only interested in the Xangu Amerindians (a respectable topic), but that based in that limited experience believe it knows the whole picture. Common, the first lesson is Colonization was quite different in the Hispanic countries in comparison to French, British and Portuguese territories, each one with its own realities.

And if you don't know the details, you shouldn't shout your anger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 22:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Of course. Particularly those that want to teach but that aren't interested in learning.

People like you that aren't interested in Guadaloupe, the racial mixing, the Latin American barroque, the Latin American literature and culture, the history of assimilation an integration of our lands, our fights for Independence and justice.

Yes, people like you that are only interested in the Xangu Amerindians (a respectable topic), but that based in that limited experience believe it knows the whole picture. Common, the first lesson is Colonization was quite different in the Hispanic countries in comparison to French, British and Portuguese territories, each one with its own realities.

And if you don't know the details, you shouldn't shout your anger.
 
Yes, there are for sure many aspects one can discuss about the meetings between Amerindians and Europeans but to often these meetings have been disastrous for the indigenous peoples.
 
And do not try to paint a too rosy picture of the Spanish relations to the indigenous peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 23:24
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Yes, there are for sure many aspects one can discuss about the meetings between Amerindians and Europeans but to often these meetings have been disastrous for the indigenous peoples.

 
In some places more than in others. You can't compare the genocide of the Caribbean with the conquist of Peru. Doing so, it is ignorance.

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


And do not try to paint a too rosy picture of the Spanish relations to the indigenous peoples.


Don't try to paing a Black Legend of the Spanish relations to the indigenous peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 23:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
In some places more than in others. You can't compare the genocide of the Caribbean with the conquist of Peru. Doing so, it is ignorance.
 
Well, if you read Stannard you could see what happened in Peru. He gives a lot of details (with references).
And still today Amerindian peoples are harrassed and get their land destroyed and exploited in Peru.
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Don't try to paing a Black Legend of the Spanish relations to the indigenous peoples.
 
Well, unfortunately the so called Black Legend is not so far fetched as many apologetics want to pretend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 00:00
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, if you read Stannard you could see what happened in Peru. He gives a lot of details (with references).
And still today Amerindian peoples are harrassed and get their land destroyed and exploited in Peru.


In the topic of Latin America, I don't read Swedish people. I don't consult Bolivians about the history of iceland, either.


Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Well, unfortunately the so called Black Legend is not so far fetched as many apologetics want to pretend.


Unfortunately, the Black Legend is nothing more than Protestant bigotry.


Edited by pinguin - 16 Dec 2010 at 00:00
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Lawdy, Lawdy ain't this morn'n bringin'in the chortles...and here it begins right from the start the citing of David Stannard and his 1992 exercise in the exposition of the hyperbolic known as American Holocaust! The work did not have then, and even less today, any academic credibility whatsoever and its citation does little more than give evidence a priori that we are in for another round of agiprop. Given that the blather therein is little more than that old Black Legend given in the lingo of PC palaver, and no respected Americanist cites the book for any reason other than as an example of horrendous scholarship, one has to wonder as to the real motive behind its mentioning. But hey, the New Left is not exactly known for irrefutable logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 00:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



In the topic of Latin America, I don't read Swedish people. I don't consult Bolivians about the history of iceland, either.
---

Unfortunately, the Black Legend is nothing more than Protestant bigotry.
 

Well, just roam around in the list of references in Stannards book, then perhaps you would learn something about these things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 00:07
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Lawdy, Lawdy ain't this morn'n bringin'in the chortles...and here it begins right from the start the citing of David Stannard and his 1992 exercise in the exposition of the hyperbolic known as American Holocaust! The work did not have then, and even less today, any academic credibility whatsoever and its citation does little more than give evidence a priori that we are in for another round of agiprop. Given that the blather therein is little more than that old Black Legend given in the lingo of PC palaver, and no respected Americanist cites the book for any reason other than as an example of horrendous scholarship, one has to wonder as to the real motive behind its mentioning. But hey, the New Left is not exactly known for irrefutable logic.
 
Well, apologetics can always try to discard everything that do not fit in to their view of the world.
 
And do not forget that his book is not the only one that describes these things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 01:40
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, apologetics can always try to discard everything that do not fit in to their view of the world.
That's a real stunner! You never pay any attention at all to anything that rebuts or refutes your views. You recycle the same slogans with all the tenacity of a Southern Baptist preacher.
 
Incidentally Dr G I somewhat bristled at seeing Carch classified as 'new left' but then I realised with the usual bump that the word new doesn't really apply to me any more. If 'new' left means Blairite then that's probably close. I'll have to put up with thinking of myself as 'recent left' perhaps. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 02:06
For a minute there I thought I'd accidentally sparked off what was to be one of the most amusing threads...
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 04:50
Not to fear, Gcle, there is not a single thread of Humanist Marxism that characterized the original usage of the term New Left consequent to the Hungarian Revolt of 1956 and the coinage that identified Marcuse, Gramsci, and Althusser but instead refers to the phenom that had its birth with C. Wright Mills and social activism as a function of agiprop and as  a means of reaching the Nirvana known then, and even more so now, as the Counter Culture. That such humbug has now reached its apogee, an effort at a valid contemporary definition for the term requires that one recognize that it is little more than a rabid egalitarianism fueled solely by a nihilism decrying Western Culture.
 
Think of it as the vacuity of a discursor who cares not for the intellectual validity of their contention but solely on just how loud they can be so as to drown out all objections.


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Dec 2010 at 09:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 05:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Well, just roam around in the list of references in Stannards book, then perhaps you would learn something about these things.


I am afraid I know quite a lot more than yourself about the history of my city, my country, South America and Latin America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 08:59
Originally posted by DrG DrG wrote:

Not to fear, Gcle, there is not a single thread of Humanist Marxism that characterized the original usage of the term New Left consequent to the Hungarian Revolt of 1956 and the coinage that identified Marcuse, Gramsci, and Althusser but instead refers to the phenom that had its birth with C. Wright Mills and social activism as a function of agiprop and as  a means of reaching the Nirvana known then, and even more so now, as the Counter Culture. That such humbug has now reached its apogee, an effort at a valid contemporary definition for the term requires that one recognie that it is little more than a rabid egalitarianism fueled solely by a nihilism decrying Western Culture.


That's bloody epic! Hats off to you sir, that made my morning Thumbs UpClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:02
Was there genocide in the Americas?
Answer: Yes. We can't call otherwise the destiny suffered by some native american groups, such as the Tainos, the Caribs, the Onas (Land of Fire) and some groups in North America?

Was a generalized genocide of ALL American Indians of the Americas?
Answer: No. Many native americans survived the invasion, either pure or in admixture. There are still today hundred of different ethnic groups of Amerindian origins.

Were there abuses against Indigenous people: Yes, there were many.

Were all Indigenous people abused?: No. Many Indigenous peoples addapted pretty well, and some even got nobility titles.

Did the Amerindians suffered? Yes. Were they systematically destroyed? In some cases, yes. But it can't be generalized. The contact is a period of 5 CENTURIES, where there has been all the scenarios possible.

Something to think.

(1) Nowhere Indian genetics become extincted. Even in populations where Indigenous are minoritary, like the U.S. or Dominican Republic, a percentage of the population still carry Amerindian genetics. In other places, Amerindian genetics is quite common or dominant. There are more than 400 millions of Indigenous descendent peoples in the Americas, or even more, with varying degrees of admixture. Pure Indigenous people are still around 80 millions.

(2) Very few Indigenous cultures become extincted without a trace. The body of knowledge about American Indian cultures is huge, and many Amerindian traditions assimilated to the mainstream. Curiously, not only in Latin America, but in North America as well.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:07
By the way, with respect of the NUMBERS of American Indians at contact, I am afraid there is no reliable census. All that I can say is that those numbers are just guessing, and that the numbers of Indians at contact has increased tenfold during this century.

In short, anyone that claim a "massive demographic decline" based in those numbers simply lies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 21:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Well, just roam around in the list of references in Stannards book, then perhaps you would learn something about these things.


I am afraid I know quite a lot more than yourself about the history of my city, my country, South America and Latin America.
 
Because you live in South America that does not mean that you must be very knowledgeable about all aspects of its history.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Was there genocide in the Americas?
Answer: Yes. We can't call otherwise the destiny suffered by some native american groups, such as the Tainos, the Caribs, the Onas (Land of Fire) and some groups in North America?

Was a generalized genocide of ALL American Indians of the Americas?
Answer: No. Many native americans survived the invasion, either pure or in admixture. There are still today hundred of different ethnic groups of Amerindian origins.

Were there abuses against Indigenous people: Yes, there were many.

Were all Indigenous people abused?: No. Many Indigenous peoples addapted pretty well, and some even got nobility titles.

Did the Amerindians suffered? Yes. Were they systematically destroyed? In some cases, yes. But it can't be generalized. The contact is a period of 5 CENTURIES, where there has been all the scenarios possible.

Something to think.

(1) Nowhere Indian genetics become extincted. Even in populations where Indigenous are minoritary, like the U.S. or Dominican Republic, a percentage of the population still carry Amerindian genetics. In other places, Amerindian genetics is quite common or dominant. There are more than 400 millions of Indigenous descendent peoples in the Americas, or even more, with varying degrees of admixture. Pure Indigenous people are still around 80 millions.

(2) Very few Indigenous cultures become extincted without a trace. The body of knowledge about American Indian cultures is huge, and many Amerindian traditions assimilated to the mainstream. Curiously, not only in Latin America, but in North America as well.
 
Actually there have been many more native peoples that gone extinct than the ones you mention, during the five centuries of contact. Some went extinct already in the beginning of contact and others have gone extinct later. The extinctions range from North America to the Southernmost parts of South America.
But as you say many people luckily enough also survived the onslaught. But unfortunately many of them still have grave problems with the majority societies, with discrimination, land theft, violence, displacement, environmental destruction. So the ordeals of Native Americans are still not over.


Edited by Carcharodon - 16 Dec 2010 at 21:51
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Because you live in South America that does not mean that you must be very knowledgeable about all aspects of its history.


I not only live in South America. I am a South American.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there have been many more native peoples that gone extinct than the ones you mention, during the five centuries of contact. Some went extinct already in the beginning of contact and others have gone extinct later. The extinctions range from North America to the Southernmost parts of South America.


I don't deny that.

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


But as you say many people luckily enough also survived the onslaught. But unfortunately many of them still have grave problems with the majority societies, with discrimination, land theft, violence, displacement, environmental destruction. So the ordeals of Native Americans are still not over.


Certainlty. There are many issues. But you make these conflicts look like a John Wayne movie. It is not that way, at least not in my country.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 22:31
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Certainlty. There are many issues. But you make these conflicts look like a John Wayne movie. It is not that way, at least not in my country.

 

Not a film, just reality. Some of these conflicts are taken place right now, as those in Brazil or Peru.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 23:38
As usual, you make wild claims without explaining where, when, how many, or anything.
As usual, you are just a claim-maker.

Get out of South America and search for a couse in Europe, please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 00:23
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

As usual, you make wild claims without explaining where, when, how many, or anything.
As usual, you are just a claim-maker.

Get out of South America and search for a couse in Europe, please.
 
A couple of examples (as if I have not give you many examples already in other threads. Perhaps your memory is short, or you have a very selective memory):
 
 
 
 
 
Quote A beleaguered Indian community in Brazil which has been cut off from the outside world by the rancher who has taken over their lands is still imprisoned, despite winning a recent court ruling.
The Guarani community of Ypo’i returned to their ancestral land in 2009, which had been taken over by a rancher called Firmino Escobar. Mr Escobar then blocked the road leading to the Indians’ community, and gunmen surrounded their houses, cutting off their access to water, food and healthcare.
 
Unfortunately not so unlike some western movie.
 
 
Quote Thirty-four Colombian tribes face extinction, says UN report
 
 
 
By the way here is about Easter Island:
 
 

Quote Dozens wounded following police raids on Easter Island

At least 25 people have reportedly been injured after police evicted indigenous inhabitants from buildings on Rapa Nui, widely known as Easter Island.

Since August this year, Rapa Nui people have occupied a number of buildings on land they claim is legally theirs.

So the indigenous people on Eastern Island are not always so happy with Chilean occupation.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 00:37
I see. Survival international....

With respect to Easter Island, please don't interfiere in our internal affairs.

Easter Island is Chilean. Glad that Eastern Islanders want to control the immigration of foreigners, so to keep all crazy foreigners outside.




Edited by pinguin - 17 Dec 2010 at 00:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 00:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I see. Survival international....

With respect to Easter Island, please don't interfiere in our internal affairs.


 
Well, unjustice has to be adressed, even if it happens in your place.
 
Rapa Nui woman wounded by a rubber bullet
 
Rapa Nui woman wounded by a rubber bullet


Edited by Carcharodon - 17 Dec 2010 at 00:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 00:48
Yes, but not by Swedish people. Care about your Samis, and don't bug us.
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