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America VS Europe (Duel of Ideologies)

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Housecarl
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    Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 11:33
What do you think what is the reason for Americans to be so pragmatic? Here is an example and clear proof: https://youtu.be/4nPnjqmnpbc

While Europeans engaged in genocide and isolation of Bosnia, Americans took a completely different approach. They did not ignore the reality and that is that the population in that country has literacy rate over 99%, they are native Europeans, just 3 hours drive from here in Austria, they are very civilized and democratic and on top of all of that, genocide should not be justified even if all of those things would be missing. Nothing can justify genocide of Srebrenica.

Europeans however were on a completely different side of history, they engaged in genocidal tactics like the Dutch did and collaborated with other local European butchers: Dutch top court upholds liability in Srebrenica genocide - The Frontier Post

Further more French president François Mitterrand called them "unnatural" because they are (those are Clinton tapes and I quote) " unnatural in Europe since they are white>> yet Muslims". He completely ignored the fact that Christianity is not European religion either but instead it also came from the Middle East, further more Bosnians are more white and European than an average French especially considering the recent immigration in France.

So Americans, went on and Clinton told the European allies once the massacres became extreme, "We are going on, with you, without you or against you". And so they went in... they dominated the area and established peace that lasts to this day.
Clinton said " It is the power of our American ideas, far more than the power of our military might or our financial wealth, that makes America a uniquely trusted country in the world".

1. Do you think Clinton was right and that America can look beyond religious differences and see the justice and truth and as a majority Christian nation, go in and save a majority Muslim nation from other Christians?
2. Do you consider America great because of this?
3. Do you think European leaders who wanted to eradicated native Europeans (Bosnians) were right?
4. Who in your opinion has stronger and better ideology?

If you are a genocide denier, please don't reply to this thread and go look up what bones and DNA analysis are. Wikipedia is for free.


Disclaimer: I am genuinely interested in studying what made America so unique in history and even in present.

Edited by AlenDontAsk - 14 Oct 2019 at 11:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 00:53
Originally posted by AlenDontAsk AlenDontAsk wrote:

What do you think what is the reason for Americans to be so pragmatic? Here is an example and clear proof: https://youtu.be/4nPnjqmnpbc

While Europeans engaged in genocide and isolation of Bosnia, Americans took a completely different approach. They did not ignore the reality and that is that the population in that country has literacy rate over 99%, they are native Europeans, just 3 hours drive from here in Austria, they are very civilized and democratic and on top of all of that, genocide should not be justified even if all of those things would be missing. Nothing can justify genocide of Srebrenica.
Hello AlenDontAsk, I remember the news reports at the time saying genocide and no one wanted to talk about the fact that it was Christians who were responsible for a genocide. So yes Clinton pulled together a NATO alliance and the US was dropping bombs near Sarajevo for 12 days. The public generally was not against the military action but no one here that I knew, was happy about killing Christians, that part was left out of news often in nightly news reports. You had to read the paper to get actual facts, it was a liberal's war that obviously hasn't really changed the tensions in that part of the world.


Quote Europeans however were on a completely different side of history, they engaged in genocidal tactics like the Dutch did and collaborated with other local European butchers: Dutch top court upholds liability in Srebrenica genocide - The Frontier Post
Thank you for passing along this information. It seems the UN Dutch Peacekeepers in Bosnia could have saved 350 people from the genocide but instead forced them right into harm's way. There is a ruling from the court and now these relatives have a claim against the Netherlands. Disturbing, very sad.

Quote Further more French president François Mitterrand called them "unnatural" because they are (those are Clinton tapes and I quote) " unnatural in Europe since they are white>> yet Muslims". He completely ignored the fact that Christianity is not European religion either but instead it also came from the Middle East, further more Bosnians are more white and European than an average French especially considering the recent immigration in France.
Bosnia has had a huge wave of migrants and that creates a slight edge in population to the Muslims. It seems that money is being dumped into the US political coffers by anti-Muslim politicians, it is being reported that Dodik is trying to pull off a redistricting coup. 
Elsewhere, a lobbying document from late last year signed by Dodik and addressed to Antonio Guterres, UN secretary-general, demonstrates how the entity has been attempting to frame Bosnia as a European "safe haven for terrorists".https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/increase-anti-bosnian-anti-muslim-bigotry-report-190923053105055.html

Quote So Americans, went on and Clinton told the European allies once the massacres became extreme, "We are going on, with you, without you or against you". And so they went in... they dominated the area and established peace that lasts to this day.
Clinton said " It is the power of our American ideas, far more than the power of our military might or our financial wealth, that makes America a uniquely trusted country in the world".

1. Do you think Clinton was right and that America can look beyond religious differences and see the justice and truth and as a majority Christian nation, go in and save a majority Muslim nation from other Christians?
The Muslims have never had a better chance than now to be heard in the US. People hear 'terrorist' and get serious but no one wants to be perceived as racists. Our president won't be sending any troops into Serbia IMO. Trump would probably bomb them the way Clinton did but I don't see any NATO alliance happening at present. This story has to be found, no one is talking about it but once they are it will make a difference. 

Quote 2. Do you consider America great because of this?
Free Speech in America makes all other freedoms possible. That makes america great.

Quote 3. Do you think European leaders who wanted to eradicated native Europeans (Bosnians) were right?
Genocide is not ok with US. Bill Clinton will be remembered by Rwandans as the US president who didn't stop a genocide even though he knew it was happening. So, was Clinton looking for a war legacy in Bosnia? I don't know why he was motivated to help one, not the other.

Quote 4. Who in your opinion has stronger and better ideology?
I see the Christian /Muslim/Jews as 'People of the Book'. I could not possibly say which ideology is better.




Quote Disclaimer: I am genuinely interested in studying what made America so unique in history and even in present.
It's this right here, citizens engaged in the free exchange of ideas and information, much less reality in government.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 10:16
Amazing response... 

I myself am European but I am really amazed how in America people managed to move away from  tribal ways of thinking.


Also the example of Bosnia is a taboo among us Europeans to this day, I have asked this same question  for an opinion on reddit history and hoistorum they all accused me of being "provocative" and " biased and said my questions consider assumptions as "facts". It appears to me that they were not even acceptive of the premise that the genocide happened. And just asking the question why did Americans stop it and Europeans promoted was not a good question according to them they would dispute and they would like to talk about whether it ever happened. Consequently they erased my thread  and Banned Me from those subreddits and from The Forum.  Maybe that is very illustrative why the genocide happened anyway....




As for America I understand that it's  a cliche and people dispute the American values and ideas because of some war decisions... but what they did in Bosnia was really unusual and swift and quick and sure maybe some  American decisions to go to wars were badly made, people  died, economy turned bad. Those are issues that should be addressed but they can not negate that Americans really see things differently than Europeans and they really have this idk... sense for freedom and freedom of speech. I am not sure if they are  even aware of it.  I'm afraid that sometimes Americans might take these things for granted and actually allow people with bad intentions to take away those personal freedoms.

Indeed America is a country of an intelligent design where is here in Europe everything is literally a historic consequence. 

So here we always talk about culture and how we preserve culture but in America people create culture and that is something extraordinary and remarkable. 

 I think that is the reason why our culture so quickly turns into genocide and  in America people end up not being hypocrites and talking of Christianity   what Americans did in Bosnia was actually very Christian and Muslim thing to do.  they did not kill in the name of religion or in the name of God but they really protected the innocent and the one in need what can be more Christian or Muslim than that?

  interestingly when I talked to a couple of bosnians I got interested in this topic and they're actually quite thankful to Americans for what Clinton did   despite their disagreements on what God's name actually is spelled like. Lol...  I think I would feel worse in Europe knowing that they were eradicated  and I don't  think anybody gets a ticket to Heaven no matter what his religion is if you actually kill someone just because whatever.  this was so not a Christian thing to do and I really think we can learn a lot from America. 

 I think if we don't learn from the American Civil War Europa itself will dig it's own grave.  

as for the ideologies I was actually asking whether American approach or european approach was better because apparently some people really like the European approach and I wanted to hear what what in their head could they think of as a possible reason
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 10:27
I really wish I were an American and I hope one day I could be one it is really something unique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 21:40
Duel of ideologies? No, I don't think so, we simply see different cultural emphases resulting from the geographical separation of the new world from the old. Capitalism is something Europe adopted in the Victorian era, and whilst European countries have watered it down in favour of softer socialist policies, America relies on many of the same politico-economical policies it always espoused. The difference now is that America emerges as a superpower in WW2, profiting enormously from the supply of war materiel and the development/deployment of the first nuclear weapons. America has grudgingly accepted a role as the worlds policeman and maintains a very large military to this day.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 10:45
It is the thinking that leads to genocide, we have a similar problem in the US where history becomes a political bludgeon for a given party to move their agenda forward. Interesting POV on Clinton's actions after winning the election in 1992. They do not discuss the genocide here at all. It happened, it was reported at the time in newsprint. This must be so disheartening, many Americans have become disheartened we are living the revisionist plague in the US. And yes there is great concern that people are taking the freedoms for granted and so that is how freedom is lost.
https://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2017/05/12/how_us_meddling_in_the_bosnia_conflict_changed_the_face_of_nato_112341.html
When their mediation effort faltered, European leaders soon looked to Washington to take the lead in addressing the growing turbulence in Bosnia. U.S. leaders professed reluctance to do so, but that was little more than a pro forma objection. Their activist response was fast in coming and it reflected an underlying assumption (along with barely concealed contempt) that the Europeans were incapable of handling security challenges without robust American leadership. An anonymous, high-ranking Bush administration official epitomized that attitude when he sneered: “These people could not organize a three-car motorcade if their lives depended on it.”

It was a great thing to end the genocide I was glad that the US did so at the time. The Christians were a much sought after voting block that may be why the tv news did not focus on that element of it but newspapers had details about how many killed, who they were and who was doing the killing. Newspapers still had ideals. Ideals no longer worry corporate news agencies. Shocking really, that anyone could deny it now. The European approach, to broker a peace deal was not adequate with the increasing violence and changes in the US plan after the election may have disrupted some possibilities. 

The US has to be careful or we will have civil war here, lots of violence motivated by race. 

Would you say that social class plays a part in current hostilities in Bosnia?

Do you see any parallels in the motivation for violence in 1992-95 and Croatia/Serbia leading up to WW1 ?



Edited by Vanuatu - 17 Oct 2019 at 10:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 14:48
Would you say that social class plays a part in current hostilities in Bosnia?

Well in current hostilities, I assume you mean the post war ones?
Currently hostilities have a basis in religious differences and pretty much dissatisfaction that Bosnia survived. IT's a constant fight sort of to speak to keep those separatist and genocidal ideas suppressed. One thing for sure, older and war generations in Bosnia were really not hate driven, but the youth of Bosnia became 
increasingly nationalist, despite most of them never seeing any warfare. I guess the older generations were capable of gathering enough of non-Bosniaks to kind of still make Bosnia possible. Whether future younger somewhat arrogant generations would be able to do the same is questionable. I think that they are not mature enough to understand what really has happened but, hey.... let's not judge the youth before they get a chance to do something :D


Do you see any parallels in the motivation for violence in 1992-95 and Croatia/Serbia leading up to WW1 ?
Well World War 1 started because of Bosnia... As an Austrian I have an extensive knowledge about this.

Our future king (Franz Ferdinand) went with his wife to Sarajevo because Sarajevo and Bosnia were part of Austrian Empire. He went there  for a celebration and Bosniaks welcomed him in huge numbers. Sarajevo was a prospering city of our empire.

First tram was built there, we allowed them to have their local elections and somewhat democracy and also we allowed them to keep their religion and even our architects didn't want to destroy the oriental architecture. Our Emperor order really expensive buildings to be built, but not only in Ottoman architecture, but Moorish Saharan Orientalism and special architects worked on those expensive projects: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vije%C4%87nica

We gave them full understanding and an opened hand, and they accepted it. In return they really learned the language quickly and our latin script (most of them knew it since they are European anyway) and so this was a model for Austrian Empire in which way we hoped we can bring people together. It was puzzling for our Emperor that Bosniaks integrated so well, yet we had constant issues with Czechs not wanting to be a part of Empire.

So what followed was really a tremendous progress for Bosnia, Vienna was a famous city in the world and they had ability to come and study in Vienna. Emperor embraced this integration by allowing them free education for 100 years and they used those benefits in a good way.

Serbian leaders at that time were nuts over that... Because they always felt that Bosnians deserved punishment once the Turks leave. And so when we managed to work it out and in other words really have peace between us and them and truly cooperation, Bosnia soon became way more developed than Serbia. In couple of generations they had factories, railway system, trams, meteorological stations, the plans were drawn for navy harbors. So Serbs quickly realized that if this continues, they won't be able to conquer Bosnia, even if we were to leave. 

Russia always wanted access to warm waters. 

So they engaged in activities to cause instability in the region. Very logical...




So they financed a group called Black Hand and Young Bosnia, and a man called Gavrilo Princip came to Sarajevo when our heir presumptive  Franz Ferdinand was visiting. Franz Ferdinand came to celebrate the success they achieved with integration and industrial reformation of Bosnia. He was invited by the local government and people came out in thousands to greet him. 

In this group, there was Gavrilo Princip and he shot him. 

Gavrilo Princip was arrested and sentenced to 20 years in prison. (considering he killed the heir, he got lucky... and also Austria really respected the law so they couldn't just execute him. I guess they could... but it was a matter of principle.)

Austria requested other members of young bosnia and black hand all to be extradited to Bosnia to stand a trial.

Serbia refused.

Austria attacked. 

WW1 begins.

So yes, WW1 started because of the same territorial and revenge appetite of Bosnian neighbors. 

Thankfully, ever story has an end and so do those appetites and senseless revenge ideas. U.S. has put an end to that nonsense. I really have respect for Clinton... At the U.N. general assembly he got standing ovations that went on for many minutes. Leaders of the world applauded him at the time. I am sure they were aware of what he was doing in the name of America.

I think later some affairs, private ones and his wife candidacy kind of put a stain on his presidency but I don't think that is fair to him. 

He did get standing ovations at the U.N. he kind of brought those American ideas to the world so the whole world can embrace them. 

He was a good president, charming and had a nice accent. 

People are too obsessed with Monica and her accusations. Fine, those are accusations of one woman, who happened to smile on every photo with him:
https://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1456443-860_poster_16x9-pkzc-1456443.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gkp_v-WA-nM/maxresdefault.jpg
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/21/13/357F4A0800000578-0-image-a-9_1466511591407.jpg
https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1439,w_2560,x_0,y_0/dpr_1.5/c_limit,w_1044/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1492197612/articles/2014/07/23/clinton-inc-author-dishes-on-monica-lewinsky-and-the-blue-dress/140722-grove-monica-tease_qbldhz

There is not a single photo out there with him, without her smiling. But now she is accusing him. Fine...

Those are accusations of one person.

Now, why don't we hear the compliments of MILLIONS that he actually saved? 
Yes, he did not save people in  Rwanda but we also have to understand America is a country just like any other, and it has it's sphere of influence and sphere of interests. He can't just jump randomly wherever there is some conflict and stop it.

There are good reasons why the U.S. also wanted peace in Bosnia. Bosnia is almost central Europe. America invested a lot in our little micro village countries to make them at least somewhat decent. They can't afford now a bunch of wars here and butchers killing randomly everyone. IT's completely senseless.

So they had financial reasons to go in, geo political cones. However as Richard Holbrooke said they could have gone about it both ways. 

They could have EITHER gone in to save the peace keeping missions and leave and let Serbs butcher everyone up and so the war is over, OR they could go in and stop the Serbs and save Bosnia.

Those options were on the table and I think, they chose the >>harder one. That is what makes this intervention unique.

It would have been way easier to let Serbs slaughter everyone, in short term, no money spent on military, in long term, no regional conflicts and tensions. 

However they chose the HARDER option that is to save the civilians and Bosnians and then they had to go against another military, Yugoslavian military and also against most of European leaders and their agendas. 

 So America did go for their interests of course, but doing so they also protected the American ideas and justice, they really kept America on the bright side of the history. When kids learn this history in 100 years, they will definitely not read about America who facilitated the genocide. Those will be the Dutch, French and the folks from surrounding villages. Americans however have the moral high ground here. No doubt about it. History already has shown it and it remains written in history. I think history is really important for a country when kids read about history, they form their opinion about their country as well.

We often forget that. Some Chinese students told me how disappointed they became after they really read the true history of theirs and some decisions their governments were doing. Same with Japanese...

So it is in everyones national interest to have clean history and a moral high ground. Of course, one can not act like some saint in this world but at least not do genocide and some senseless disgusting things that actually benefit none. They really benefit none. 

So American freedom and liberty... People hate to hear those words because they are jealous but it is true. American freedom and liberty, the constitution designed to give those liberties is something really unique. 

If we as Europeans disagree, then I suggest to my fellow Europeans to first watch the Moon Landing to realize how awesome America is, then we can talk about other topics LOLLOL


People often dismiss American constitution like "Pfftt nothign special just few words written somewhere" "other countries also have some freedoms bla bla"

They really don't understand how special America is. How valuable the constitution is. Most people don't even know their amendments in their countries. Americans do know their amendments and especially the important ones. 

This extreme freedom giving constitution, and people who really CARE about the constitution, >>> makes many other great things possible.

That is one of the reasons why ALL great things, rock n roll, rap, hip hop, Mike Tyson, Jordan, Moon Landing, Internet, Bill gates, computers, Iphone... all of those things came from America. People need to think about that... What is it that made America so unique that all those things keep coming from America. 

In my opinion it is the American constitution and freedom and also lack of senseless religious hatred and wars. America has a lot of racial problems but that is only because it chose to deal with those demons. In Europe we "don't really" have them because we ignore that they exist. But that's a whole other topic... One should never forget, that in America two white folks were killing each other over the question whether black folk should walk free. One should never forget that... And because America took this quest of defeating racism and bringing people together and because there are difficulties in that process we try to point fingers. We need a mirror in Europe first then we can point fingers. America came a long way since the Civil War  and we never even had a civil war. Our stupidity was reflected so well on the issue of Bosnia and it was like 20 something years ago. America dealt with its demons 150 years ago and defeated them and then came to defeat ours as well. 


I know people will say I'm butt licking with all this America praising, but this IS really the truth. It simply is... We can be annoyed and jealous all day long but something happened there, people maybe saw new paths and new ways they could achieve, they left the "ancient lands" after all didn't they? 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2019 at 00:35
Agree about the youth, I suppose they are arrogant in every generation until they start to grow old:)

Currently the situation in Bosnia has a modern media element to it, just as the Rwandan genocide was being cooked up by political dirty tricks. For the world cameras a false narrative was built up by coordinated 'spontaneous' outbreaks of violence, that are anything but spontaneous. Two groups with inter-generational hatred are pushed into confrontations by fears of the one that the other is plotting destruction. Not a new tactic by any means.

Excellent to read your breakdown of the conditions leading up to WW1, Thanks for taking the time to offer your POV. Often we lack the expanded understanding unless we study, even then lines of demarcation can become mind blocks.

Clinton was a good president, no argument on that count since overall he improved the economy and the country was rather united, jobs were plentiful -before the Lewinsky matter. In fairness to Lewinsky she did not call for prosecution of Clinton. In a very foolish move she told one Linda Tripp a civil servant working for the administration. She is the person who exposed the affair and ultimately caused the absurd waste of time, money and political capitol during the Impeachment. Only to have the country elect Clinton again.

You are right on the money about slavery. It did take white people to end it and that is remarkable historically. Also the mixing of races was an American experience that demonstrates a significant change to the human condition. The legacy of those mixed race children was a strong link to the modern idea of individual rights. Family and love for your children is great motivation to let go of hatred and cultivate forgiveness or at least tolerance. 

I hope we have defeated those demons. In my life the people of other races are no source of trouble. In other parts of the country it is getting way out of control. Conservatives are said to be fascists and the communist Chinese are being embraced over fellow Americans. There has been a gross failure in education.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2019 at 13:00
Susanne Rice in an interview years ago on a CSPAN show called Booknotes said that US involvement in Bosnia was due to Senator Bob Dole of Kansas.  Dole was patched up by an Armenian doctor after WWII, and learned from him about the Armenian genocide.  According to Rice (State Department under Clinton and Obama), when Bosnia started, Dole recognized it as something like the Armenian genocide happening again, and as a powerful Senator who ran against Clinton for President, he (my phrase) was able to leverage his position to get Clinton to commit.  Rice and Hillary were hawks for getting us into Libya.  I am not sure that Libya was a 'good' thing, because now tyrants hold onto power all the more harder.

The issue with Lewinsky was not so much the sex, as perjury, lying under oath during a subpoena from Paula Jones.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 05:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4xVk5ch_MA
SOUNDBITE: (English) "Today we're here to call upon the President, President Clinton, to ensure that all war criminals in the former Yugoslavia are arrested and brought to justice. Today we're here to say that there is much more to be done to bring a stable, just and genuine peace to Bosnia. If we do not arrest the perpetrators of these crimes of genocide, we will risk the investment of billions of dollars, right now it's about seven billion dollars, thousands of military and civilian personnel, and our prestige and our influence as the greatest country on the face of the earth." SUPER CAPTION: Bob Dole, former Senate Majority Leader and presidential candidate Dole joined other individuals, as well as a broad coalition of religious, women's and human rights organizations, in publishing an open letter to Clinton in Tuesday's New York Times. The letter calls for the president to "ensure that US led NATO forces in Bosnia meet their moral obligation" in bringing war criminals to justice.



Edited by Vanuatu - 19 Oct 2019 at 05:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 17:23
Amazing links... amazing ideas and perspectives.

Thank you all for contributing.

Every day, I get inspired and amazed by America. 
 
My girlfriend is from Temecula, CA but born in TN and you really feel this... Freedom in her, sort of speak... the way American kids are brought up and the way they think is really  giving America a bright future. An American Christian for example, does not believe with hatred. An American Christian values freedom, because in order to be a true Christian, you have to be given freedom to choose it. Otherwise, it was forced and thus not really true and legit faith in your heart. When you have such Buddhist and Muslim then those folks are also brought up differently since they also understand that freedom allowed to express themselves and thus they also  have different mentalities and that is why America is capable of so many things. That is why when an Indian or an Egyptian or Japanese immigrates to America, he says "This is my home". That brings tears to my eyes... This is something we could never do here in Europe sadly. We don't have a heart and wisdom for something that great.




For a gentleman who said that there was no duel of ideologies, study the history of American wars with Europeans and you will see how flawed our motives were in those wars and why many of those wars were simply inevitable, including the last one >Bosnian war. I also suggest reading The New Colossus, nothing illustrates more the extreme differences between America and Europe. Even to me as born and raised European, that poem brings tears to my eyes. It literally symbolizes American stand off with Europe:

„Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!“ cries she
With silent lips. „Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.“

sh*t, tears again... I better go, grown man crying is never good haha....

America is an amazing nation
God bless you all... 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2019 at 19:18
I hope we keep the republic and turn the violent tide. Education has failed in schools where kids have to drill for mass shooters! It's a war zone and politicians press for a greater divide.

Freedom of speech is a principal pillar of a free government: When this support is taken away, the constitution of a free society is dissolved,” wrote Founding Father Benjamin Franklin in The Pennsylvania Gazette.

Please share your thoughts on the Nobel Prize going to Peter Handke. 


"In 50 years… Peter Handke, just like Beckett, will be among the most obvious choices the Swedish Academy ever made, of that I am certain," Petersen wrote in an op-ed in the newspaper Svenska Dagbladet.

The awarding of the Nobel to Handke came under fire in the Balkans and beyond because of his admiration for late Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosevic.

In the 1990s, Handke emerged as a vocal defender of the Serbs during the bloody collapse of the former Yugoslavia, even comparing them to Jews under the Nazis, a remark he later retracted.

Handke also attended the 2006 funeral of Milosevic – who died while on trial for crimes against humanity, and who wanted Handke to testify in his defence.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2019 at 06:06
Ohh Peter Handke... 

It just illustrates the difference between America and Europe even more.
Since I am from Austria, basically the same country as Peter Handke, I understand very well people of his type and mentality.

Here is our "Noble" Peter visiting Srebrenica genocide site in 1996 right after it happened:
https://miro.medium.com/max/960/1*Qoaqk4aC8fCjlJnjsp-gdg.jpeg

Here he is again in 1996 with the local butchers drinking:
https://www.radiosarajevo.ba/vijesti/bosna-i-hercegovina/handke-nakon-genocida-setao-srebrenicom-i-visegradom/353785

Here is he in 1996 swimming in a river called Drina, where many bodies were dumped:
https://www.radiosarajevo.ba/vijesti/bosna-i-hercegovina/handke-nakon-genocida-setao-srebrenicom-i-visegradom/353785

This man is simply driven by hate and such people exactly are the reason why in Europe today genocide was possible to happen and why to this day we are digging out graves. Even if he was such a "great" writer, he doesn't deserve to have a word "noble" next to his name.

Make no mistake, I know these folks, lived around them here my whole life, it is simple evil. If America would disappear tomorrow, for one single day... Bosnia would be all in blood the next day. The only thing keeping these people in tact is the fact that American military slapped them and the local butchers around and established lasting peace. 

Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt said that Milosevic was "a nice guy" and Carl is responsible for a lot of diplomatic effort to facilitate the genocide. French journalist Florence Hartman attacked him publicly when he showed up on commemoration of victims of genocide and siege of Sarajevo: https://youtu.be/8JmIx3WoCC0 Please watch that video, it is heart breaking.
So Europe is full of people like Handke and Carl Bildt. That is the reason why we were and are able to silently support the genocide and turn the blind eye to such horrific things. I really can not stress it enough how unjust and pointless this genocide was. The population is highly educated and very very democratic, despite their different faith. They have more European values and dna than most of people like Handke and Carl Bildt. Handkes career is mediocre at best and many less known people also got that "nobel" prize... 


On the other hand, American Hollywood story writers, movie directors, artists have brought a revolution the the world, not just with their extremely good production skills but also writing abilities. 

American writers can work with the producers so well that people take samples of 10-20 seconds of their scenes and dwell and admire over it, over and over: https://youtu.be/ZD0_5HFMPIg American story writers and artists, especially movie makers are so powerful at capturing human emotion and attention... 

Disney makers are so powerful of capturing the emotion and synchronize the music and scenery with the story and animation that even animals start crying: https://youtu.be/Q-p747h4HKw

This is a known phenomenon for some of those classics of Disney, animals literally start crying. It is because Americans didn't focus on stupid genocides and murders, perverted ideas, artists in America had the freedom and life long careers to focus on perfecting the craft of writing, movie making, animating. 

This produced marvels and diamonds of American art, of world art, the world has never seen. That is why American art has spread across the globe and it was able to overpower those nationalistic and locally fueled art works such as Handkes. Similar progress in art also happened in the Soviet Union where people were led by ideas more than instincts. People were more aware and consciousness of their surroundings. One wonderful example I always like to read from the Soviet literature is Sergei Esenin.

Here is how American soundtracks are done daily: https://youtu.be/pi_Ocd9IALc
Best of the best of the best of the best get the chance for their 5 minutes in that movie. The artists with power, with uniqueness. And there you go, people sit there millions of them, not only watching the movie but watching the soundtrack and how it was made because the freaking thing is a master, even though it was a movie for children. 

Handkes movies grossed maybe 10.. maybe 50 000 USD? Not even written on Wikipedia.
American movies gross billions of dollars each: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films

There is a list... Very little people assume just because it is popular that it is not "artistic" enough... But there are many American movies with traditional stories like Titanic an  epic romance. 

So sure, some group of perverted ego-hurt Europeans can sit there and reward some  genocide celebrating evil person whos movies never even made it to worldwide screens. American artists on the other hand, pushed for art, ideas, justice, love, human noble ideas. Sure, not all of the American artists had these ideas, but overwhelmingly they did and Americans focused on improving their writing skills, production, working as a team. This brought American ideas to the world wide stage and we all know these American artistic works. If you look at Tom Cruise's movie "Born On The 4Th Of July", it is one of the most striking movies I've ever watched in my life. It really influenced me to realize America better and distance myself from my European identity. 

Handke will never reach that kind of recognition. Nobody will read his ideas as some sort of revelation. His movies are actually completely unheard of:
Completely unknown movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left-Handed_Woman
Yet another completely unknown movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Move

I will not embarrass him more but he is not known for those movies he made, he is known for genocidal controversies and books he wrote. So what does that tell us about Handke? Or maybe even more about those few persons who were in that commission who thought that he deserves that prize?

When you say George Lucas >> everyone knows>> Star Wars.
When you say Tom Cruise>> everyone knows>> Born On The 4th Of July 
When you say Leonardo DiCaprio >> everyone knows>> Titanic...
When you say Ernest Hemingway>>> everyone knows >> The Old Man and the Sea 
When you say Henry D. Thoreau >>> everyone knows >> Walden and Civil Disobedience 
You can go on like that for days and days and their works that have changed the world.

HOWEVER when you say >> Peter Handke>> people don't know those movies names. Ahaa!! What do people know? He glorified genocide and massacres, senseless killings of poor and weak. 

So the conclusion? Names of his movies never ring a bell, they were never classics he could only wish for. American movies made history and the artists I've named are known>>> FOR THEIR WORKS.

While he dwelt over our genocidal history, American artists made history.
I hope this cliche sentence makes more sense because I tried to extensively explain my reasoning behind it. It sounds like cliche, it really isn't. 







Edited by AlenDontAsk - 08 Nov 2019 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 01:18
Hello and thank you for the links. I don't see how people manage to be so calm in the presence of Handke and Bilt. Our Minority House Leader has people harass him at home, threaten to cut his throat even though he hasn't demonstrated any support for ethnic cleansing. Rage is inspired by talk of sending undocumented people back to their home countries.

That was all very upsetting, in America they would be killed, there is no doubt in my mind.

Movies were once a higher calling. Quentin Tarantino is the last honest man in Hollywood. He refused to bend to the Chinese by deleting a scene from the film "Once Upon A Time in Hollywood." 

In the scene, a stunt man beats the tar out of Bruce Lee. China does Not love this, they made threats and Tarantino said -fine no distribution in Asia and I'm not changing my film.
The Hollywood that existed during McCarthyism would not recognize the kow- towing pedophiles who are running things today.

Handke could have done a meaningful film on Slobodan Milošević -what made him tic, Handke? 
What did you lads get up to for fun? 
You know it would have at least been real and not the filthy lie of genocide denial.
I do appreciate the good things that you remember about the Golden Age of movies.


Edited by Vanuatu - 11 Nov 2019 at 01:51
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 07:56
Well the news just came out a few days ago, on my ride to university in the tram, on the news screen:
https://theintercept.com/2019/11/06/nobel-prize-literature-peter-handke-yugoslavia-passport/

Haha, he was rewarded a passport by Milosevic regime and most likely citizenship, in his nationality it stated "Yugoslav" on the passport.

I mean the thing is ridiculous. It's like having a honorary passport rewarded to you by Hitler himself and being his news outlet and then getting a "noble prize"...

Yeah I know about the Chinese influence on Hollywood... This is crazy and must be answered somehow.

You know America was not always richest and biggest economy in the world, but it was always unique, even when it was smaller than U.K. That is very important to remember. People think that American might and size made freedom possible. It is actually, other way around... Freedom made all other things possible. There was time when America was poor and underdeveloped compared to us. 

So therefore even in the world where ever since 2014 China is number one economy in PPP measures and grows still at amazing 6-7% and becomes stronger and bigger and has more influence in the world, this does not mean that American freedom in America have to be lost, and America has to turn into some dictatorship. Even if America would become completely poor (which is very very unlikely, most likely it will be number 2 economy in sheer size and always in top in per capita terms), America can still keep freedom even if poor.  That is really really important to know. 

I dream and look forward to that day when I'll become an American. I love my girlfriend beyond anything and I'd go after her even to North Korea so I don't want her to think, she is my way to have an American passport, but it really is something amazing to consciously and willingly decide to become an American. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 13:34
Good articles at the link, it's too obscene to be true.
All of the US saw the thousands of children born of rape in Milosovic's orphanages. The humanity was undeniable. 

What does the Nobel committee mean to say? 
Are they trying to prove how sophisticated their thinking is and so thousands of rapes and murders can be overlooked to hear the sunny side of the Serbs?

Why do the French encourage this devil Handke? Apologists for eternity!
Je Suis Handke? 
Je suis Milosovic?


Edited by Vanuatu - 11 Nov 2019 at 13:35
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2019 at 12:19
not sure what you mean by French, Nobel is Swedish Academy.

The literature committee pretty much ignored American writers in the 20s, 30s, 40s.  Like Hemingway.  Not "sophisticated" enough for them.

of course, there have been some howlers as far as the peace prize, Arafat for example, showing that if you cause the violence, then you can get a prize if you stop (or say you stop).  Barack Obama was rightfully embarrassed for winning the peace prize, for what he was "going" to do(?)  Gore won the peace prize for a book whose 'message' was politically correct, but whose science was off, that is why they tacked on a few scientists to the prize whose science was better.  There have been three "f-ck" Bush Peace prizes, one for Carter, one for Gore, and one for Obama.

There was a chemistry nobel prize winner for Nitrogen fixation in the soil (fertilizer), this scientist introduced the use of poison gas in WWI, and was considered by Americans to be a war criminal after that.  He deserved the prize for Nitrogen fixation, of course, Nobel made his millions through the invention and sale of dynamite.

Richard Feynman won the physics prize, I seem to remember that for him it was about as much hassle as it was worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlenDontAsk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2019 at 17:35
Handke lived in France for quite some time and Austrian feelings towards Bosnia are quite mixed at best to be honest. He kind of lived in "exile" from Austria because here people often disagreed with him.

Bosnia was part of our monarchy and we actually had very prosperous relationships with them. Somehow we never joined those, at least our country didn't, calls to eradicate the Bosnians. However we always had this evil part of our society that simply hated them for no reason. Handke is a prime example of it.

Here is one local society that actually is full of people like Handke: http://albia.at/

In countries such as France and Sweden, such circles and groups and societies often had grip to power.

In Austria, they don't have a grip to power like that. Some other societies and groups have more influence, if not all the influence. Not always indeed... 

France is full of such societies as Albia and Sweden as well. Those are secret societies who don't publicly announce their members. Sometimes they do, but they often choose their political agenda behind closed doors. Nothing wrong with that you know, but the problem is that their motivates are really hate drive and they facilitate a lot of inertia and inability in Europe to progress. In America there are societies as well but their nature and aim is drastically different than those ones.

Such societies often facilitate their hurt egos since our little countries lost importance in the world geo-politics. So they gather there to hate together sort of speak.  Quite pathetic...

Jacques Chirac managed to pull the power in France away from those circles and fixed a lot of wrong doings that Miterrand has committed and Jacques Chirac actually aligned French policies with the American official stance. It helped a lot to bring peace and sense into Europe and make France more dynamic in spreading American ideas.  

Luckily throughout history, people like Handke and those socities never managed to direct Austrian politics and call the shots but they were always there. First we had an Emperor who diminished their power and established a multicultural empire and after that Hitler came into power quickly exterminating them all since he also saw them as a threat to his power. After that they never recovered and so that is why Austria and Germany were more easily adapted to this idea of new Europe led by America. Hitler kind of "cleaned" Austria and Germany of those old elements that America has problems with in other European countries when it comes to this aspect. Countries such as Czech, Slovakia are completely inert and unable to move. They are so deceived in their stupidity that they go to Putins knees just to spite the idea of unified Europe: https://observer.com/2018/01/how-czech-president-milos-zeman-became-vladimir-putins-man/.

This is one of the reasons. France had really though time directing their politics in the right direction as well and that is why Frances policy can be divided into two eras, Miterrand and post-Miterrand. In France those powers of cosmopolitan way of thinking only just recently managed to excel. Still those are minor changes to what is needed to truly become unified and secure as America is. We need to completely destroy those tribal hatred and ways of thinking and favor freedom and ideas of freedom above all.

Why do French support him? I think they all don't but many do. He lived in France for quite some time and in France, such circles and organizations are much stronger than here in Austria. They provided him with support and they often promote your works if you write the crap they want to hear.  I am academically educated and you would be puzzled how powerful such people are on some universities here. We in Austria managed to be pragmatic and he was often criticized here for his hateful and senseless acts and words. He found refuge in France for many years. Even today, we refuse mostly his prize and don't see pride in it. People I talked to at least 80% of them see it as shameful that there are people and circles willing to reward him. We know mostly who he is and what he does. 

The main ally for Serbs and Yugoslavians in fact was France, not Russia. Handke was a weirdo who goes to a place where genocide is committed just to smell the dead bodies, or swim in a river where bodies were dumped and and see empty cities. Of course France was the only country he felt at "home" at that time. 

Luckily France changed a lot and to be honest our hope now to ever reform Europe and make it somewhat as free as America is in nowadays France and Germany. I hope there can be push towards that, even when our economies have collapsed. 

And quite frankly, if we never make it, I don't care. I already am planing my move to America and my girlfriend made me see things with different eyes. I dream of the day when I will announce I became an American and sing that Ohh say can you see <3 :) God bless the freedom

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 07:25
I am glad you like Americans, but I hope that if you ever get over here that you look at things with a critical eye.  We don't have the same problems as Europe, but we do have other problems, many unique to our situation.  United States has a great deal of military projective power.  Some will criticize if we do something (Iraq) some might criticize if we don't do something (Rwanda), either way there will be critics thinking that they know better, and could do better.  They cannot, only a handful of countries could alone support military action anywhere besides at their borders (and besides the high seas against pirates).

"A critical eye" in my book means weighing both the good and the bad, if there seems to be only good, or only bad then you are probably missing something.  "Loving" something ultimately means being able to accept in them both their bad side and their good side.
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