| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Abortion = Child Sacrifices
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Abortion = Child Sacrifices

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Abortion = Child Sacrifices
    Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 17:39
A movie for Carcha.

Abortion is human sacrifice. Information here.



Moloch, the god of Carthagians, Tyrans and modern abortionists.


Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4541
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 23:14
This ought to be interesting, in a achy migraine sort of way?
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 01:27
The allegations that early Carthaginians actually burned their own children to a pagan God, is obviously stupid!
 
Thus, where would us Jews and Christians be, if one of our founders did the same?
 
What?  It never happened? 
 
Perhaps not?
 
Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 01:37
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

The allegations that early Carthaginians actually burned their own children to a pagan God, is obviously stupid!
 
Thus, where would us Jews and Christians be, if one of our founders did the same?
 
What?  It never happened? 
 
Perhaps not?
 
Regards,
 
Ron


People used to think so, until archaeologists did discover mass graves of infants whose remains showed signs of death through ritual killings rather than natural causes. Baby sacrifice by the Carthaginians appears to be more than mere anti-Punic propaganda by the Romans.

Back on topic, there is no link between modern abortion and ancient Punic religious traditions.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 01:52

Then just how do you place the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, as God demanded?  We are only told, second or third hand, that he was saved by the hand of God! But, it seems the father did only what HE was expected to do!  As that was the way it was always done!Confused

 
But, perhaps both he and I was/were, wrong?


Edited by opuslola - 28 Feb 2011 at 01:53
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 02:07
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Then just how do you place the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, as God demanded?  We are only told, second or third hand, that he was saved by the hand of God! But, it seems the father did only what HE was expected to do!  As that was the way it was always done!Confused

 
But, perhaps both he and I was/were, wrong?


That has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing - which is the relation of ancient Punic ritual infanticide to modern abortion.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: Bush Capital
Status: Offline
Points: 7830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 09:09
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Then just how do you place the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, as God demanded?  We are only told, second or third hand, that he was saved by the hand of God! But, it seems the father did only what HE was expected to do!  As that was the way it was always done!Confused

 
But, perhaps both he and I was/were, wrong?
The story of Ibrahim's willingness to sacrific his son Ismael, and of Ismael's willingness for it to occur is a demonstration of their total devotion to God's will - not a story of child sacrifice. That's why we eat lamb or goat on the anniversary - because God did ordered Ibrahim to sacrifice a goat, not his son, once he had demonstrated that he was prepared to do the latter.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 16:31
Jack Miles, an ex-Jesuit but writing from a Judaic point of view in God - a Biography makes a case for Abraham / Ibrahim / Abram out-bluffing God in the story, knowing that God wouldn't go through with the demand as long as he showed willing to follow.
 
It's an interesting analysis of the Tanakh and the way it shows the development of Jewish ideas of God.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2011 at 16:13
The premise of this thread is a False Analogy...it's as simple as that.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2011 at 18:51
True, of course. Abortion is not a sacrifice and neither does it involve a child.
 
I suppose it is theoretically possible that there might be a religion in which sacrificing a fetus might serve some form of public ritual end, but as far as I know there never has been a culture that had anything similar. If there ever was I'd be interested in knowiing about it.
 
Otherwise it sounds like something for the science fictioon writers.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The premise of this thread is a False Analogy...it's as simple as that.


False, only if you start from a false dogma.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:37
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Back on topic, there is no link between modern abortion and ancient Punic religious traditions.


It is the same thing. Infanticide (or abortion) has always used to control natality. Only recently some advanced societies have started to criticize this widespread practice.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:40
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

True, of course. Abortion is not a sacrifice and neither does it involve a child.


Prove it. It is possible a fetus is not a child, depending in the state of development. Agreed.

But what nobody could deny is that a human fetus is a human being. And abortion is simply killing human beings. So, there is no much difference with ritual infanticide at all.

By the way, ancient societies resorted to infanticide as a routine to control birth. There is no much difference with abortion at all. Both consist in killing human beings in the earliest stages of development.


Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:43
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

...
The story of Ibrahim's willingness to sacrific his son Ismael, and of Ismael's willingness for it to occur is a demonstration of their total devotion to God's will - not a story of child sacrifice. That's why we eat lamb or goat on the anniversary - because God did ordered Ibrahim to sacrifice a goat, not his son, once he had demonstrated that he was prepared to do the latter.


It is also the simbolical event that marks when the Jewish people abandoned the ritual sacrifices so common among theirs neighbour the Caananites, Phoenicians and Phillisteans.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 03:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Back on topic, there is no link between modern abortion and ancient Punic religious traditions.


It is the same thing. Infanticide (or abortion) has always used to control natality. Only recently some advanced societies have started to criticize this widespread practice.


Incorrect.

The Carthaginians offered sacrifices of infants during especially difficult times (usually national emergencies) to secure the protection of their gods.

Abortion occurs because for one reason or another those able to influence the birth do not wish for it to occur and so they kill the foetus.

Different things are being killed for different reasons in different cultures. The two situations are not linked.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 12:34
I'll add to that: Infanticide is a form of homicide where the victim is an infant, i.e. someone between birth and one year old. It is not murder in the UK anyway when committed by the mother of the infant. Infanticide has been legally present in the majority of human societies and is still not uncommon today.
 
Since abortion refers necessarily to a fetus, and infanticide to an infant, and child sacrifice to a child, not of an infant or a fetus, they are all different things.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 12:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

True, of course. Abortion is not a sacrifice and neither does it involve a child.


Prove it. It is possible a fetus is not a child, depending in the state of development. Agreed.
So what's left to prove? When the abortion is carried out, what god is the sacrifice being offered to? I already conceded the theoretical possibility of sacrificing a fetus; I just don't believe any one anywhere has done so. I'd be interested in any evidence that they have.  
Quote
But what nobody could deny is that a human fetus is a human being. And abortion is simply killing human beings. So, there is no much difference with ritual infanticide at all.
Of course people can and do deny a human fetus is a human being. They can deny a fetus is a being for that matter; or deny that it is alive while incapable of exising on its own. Traditionally in most cultures, including the Christian churches, fetuses have only been alive after they have begun to move and the mother has been able to feel the movements.
Quote
By the way, ancient societies resorted to infanticide as a routine to control birth.
Some modern societies do too. So?
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 12:48
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It is also the simbolical event that marks when the Jewish people abandoned the ritual sacrifices so common among theirs neighbour the Caananites, Phoenicians and Phillisteans.
Nonsense. There weren't any Jewish people in Abraham's time. The children of Israel have only existed winc Israel had children. Abraham was an ancestor of the Jews.
 
Anyway ritual sacrifices of animals continued in the Temple in Jerusalem until 70 CE, well into Christian times. There's even a movement in Israel today to restore them in a rebuilt Temple.
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 13:13
Animals aren't humans, are they? We are talking about human sacrifices, here.
If you preffer, you can call the ancient Hebrews by that name. But ancient Hebrews practised human sacrifices like any other peoples in that ancient land.


Edited by pinguin - 02 Mar 2011 at 13:15
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Location: Norwich, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 13:48
So I take it, Pinguin, you are one of those religious fanatics who oppose abortion?
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 14:14
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Animals aren't humans, are they?
 
But humans are animals, more exactly a species of mammals.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 14:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Animals aren't humans, are they? We are talking about human sacrifices, here.
No we weren't. You had simply said
Originally posted by pinguin earlier pinguin earlier wrote:

It is also the simbolical event that marks when the Jewish people abandoned the ritual sacrifices so common among theirs neighbour the Caananites, Phoenicians and Phillisteans.

Quote
But ancient Hebrews practised human sacrifices like any other peoples in that ancient land.
You have some evidence for that?
 
Were there even any Hebrews before Abram? He was from Chaldea originally, and no-one before him as far as I can see was ever called a Hebrew (and we have, since we're playing this game, the complete record of all his ancestors back to Noah, whom we all share).
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Animals aren't humans, are they?
 
But humans are animals, more exactly a species of mammals.
Not what pinguin said. He is correct that animals are not necessarily humans, so animal sacrifices are not necessarily human sacrifices.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 14:55
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not what pinguin said. He is correct that animals are not necessarily humans, so animal sacrifices are not necessarily human sacrifices.
 
Sometimes your comments are extremely meaningless.


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Mar 2011 at 14:56
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 15:02
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
But humans are animals, more exactly a species of mammals.


Yes, but humanism is not the same than animalism.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 15:24
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not what pinguin said. He is correct that animals are not necessarily humans, so animal sacrifices are not necessarily human sacrifices.
 
Sometimes your comments are extremely meaningless.
They tend to be designed for someone capable of following a logical chain of thought.
(p->q)->(X(p)->X(q))
not(p->q)->not(X(p)->X(q))
if that helps.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02 Mar 2011 at 15:26
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 17:12
Almost all animals aren't humans; all humans are animals; Almost all animals aren't tigers; Tigers are animals...
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 01:50
Gee!  What a "revolting development?"Angry
 
The substitution of commoners for royalty is a common theme in the past also!  Re., the substitute "king", or "queen", etc.!  Most common in the period we now call the Middle Ages!
 
Think also of "sin eaters?" 
 
 
Regards
 
 


Edited by opuslola - 03 Mar 2011 at 01:53
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1352
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 11:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


But what nobody could deny is that a human fetus is a human being. And abortion is simply killing human beings. So, there is no much difference with ritual infanticide at all.
I deny that a human fetus is a human being ( Hey! your statement just became false!!!Tongue). Abortion is definitely not killing a human being. Sometimes abortion is protecting a human being. Sometimes abortion is natural.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 12:15
A human faetus is a human being, what else is it? On what is your denial based? The only logic in your statement is that if by it you are making a value judgement.  And how can sticking forcepts up a womans vagina for cutting up the faetus and removing it in pieces from her womb be natural in any way?
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 13:04
Agreed. The denial of human citizenship is part of the shame.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.